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Question on weathering
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Author Topic: Question on weathering  (Read 18683 times)
jonbius
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« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2013, 09:55:19 PM »

Thank you for the photos.

I hope I have not created a problem with my question! Wink

Seriously though, all of this has been very helpful. It helps me understand some likely scenarios for my weathering on various aircraft. In fact, my Zvazda La-5 and La-5FN arrived yesterday, and the kits look very nice. I will have to start them soon.
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Jon Bius
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KL
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« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2013, 10:55:47 PM »

I hope I have not created a problem with my question! Wink

as I said in my first post, there is a controversy.  Roll Eyes

Unfortunately the exact shades of real new colors are unknown, because all the chips have 65 years.

Unknown - maybe, but not because all the chips are 65 years old.  If this was true USAAF, RAF and LW colours would be unknown too.  American, British and German chips are also geting old.  Or time doesn't count for them??
In reality, nobody in the West has ever tryied seriously to define those colours.  Akanihin is the first and only who did something in Russia.

Cheers,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2013, 02:12:06 PM »


I appreciate the effort of Akanihin and other researchers.  The progresses made in the latest 15 years are undeniable.
I am not saying that shades are totally unknown, of course.
I am saying that one can't be dogmatic with the few informations we have. Besides it would be good to involve someone expert of chemistry in a deep discussion.
The problem exists for planes of other nations too, but the studies have started much before, with more specimens, well preserved planes, more accessible documents, younger witnesses, color photos, the common availability of catalogues of chips as FS etc.
Regards
Massimo
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B_Realistic
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« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2013, 06:46:39 PM »

So how can we make some end conclusions?

- paints kept there color even at the different weather conditions?
- there were touchups after battle damages and there could be some color differencies?
- colors have another tone when sprayed over metallic or wood?

This in contradiction to other aircraft that flew in other places in the world like the F-6F3's which had very light colors in the Pacific or the P-47's in the European theatres.
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KL
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« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2013, 11:09:30 PM »

This in contradiction to other aircraft that flew in other places in the world like the F-6F3's which had very light colors in the Pacific or the P-47's in the European theatres.

Sorry, but your examples are almost irrelevant.  Lips Sealed
Tropical sun and salt make Pacific theatre probably the most hostile environment for any paint.  European climate is more paint friendly, but Thunderbolts regularly climbed to 7,000m (it's cold there).
Most important, you are not saying after what time those planes had "very light colors" - after 3 months, after 1 year or more?

As you may know (or not?), kids in twenties and thirties don't think about aging.  In their forties - maybe.  Most people in their fifties know what the effects of aging are.  Same with paints - weathering works from day one but its effects are not visible for some time.  Then they become visible and degradation of paints becomes faster and faster.

Following is illustration from one Russian book (author is V. Chebotarevski - designer of AMT paints) that shows how paint ages:


My point:  how old is the plane you are modeling?  Doesn?t this question make sense when we talk about aging effects?
Cheers,
KL
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Troy Smith
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« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2013, 04:17:56 PM »

but Thunderbolts regularly climbed to 7,000m (it's cold there).

a couple of points, regarding P-47's, it not so much the cold, but higher Ultraviolet exposure at a higher altitude that will fade paint.

As for the age of VVS aircraft, or WW2 aircraft in general, they often had very short service lifespans, so paint ageing and weathering did not have time to happen.

I have also noticed that VVS aircraft look to be very well cared for, note the common use of a type of fabric [I presume]  wing protector for servicing, visible in may photos.

Planes may come back with exhaust stains and oil streaks from the engine, but these are cleaned off during even basic servicing.

One interesting point, about metal vs other surfaces, often it seems fabric covered will fade faster,

this is a Hurricane in France, may 1940.   It's been in service for at least 6 months, as part of the RAF in France,  it's one with fabric covered wings,[outboard of the gun bays]  as well as the fuselage.
note the much paler colours on the fabric covered areas to the metal parts.  Interestinlgy the area directly under the cockpit is plywod covered in fabric, and this does not seem to have faded.



Massimo has noted a similar fading on the fabric covered parts of Yaks as well.   I don't know if this is a light effect, due to the fabric surfaces being slighly rougher in texture, so having different reflectance or just that paint weathers faster on fabric covered areas?

Hope of use to the discussion.

T
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learstang
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« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2013, 05:53:21 PM »

It seems to me that we're talking about at least three different types of weathering; exhaust and other stains, fadeing or even darkening with age, and paint-chipping.  With regards to the fabric-covered wooden parts of VVS aeroplanes, they may have faded differently than the metal parts (due sometimes to different paints), but the wooden parts don't seem to have chipped as easily, which I believe Konstantin has already mentioned.  On the other hand, the metal parts could become very heavily-chipped, indeed.  An example is the port wingroot of the Shturmoviks, which were often very heavily-chipped, with some examples where the pilot's "path" to the cockpit was bare metal, the paint having been completely chipped away.  Although such VVS aircraft such as the Il-2 didn't last very long in combat, they were very heavily-utilised, so they should show certain types of weathering, such as the wingroot weathering, and sometimes very heavy exhaust stains.

Regards,

Jason
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B_Realistic
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« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2013, 06:23:56 PM »

@KL
Why would my remarks be irrelevant? P-47's weathered fast in the European theatre and left there toll on the paint. Even after some weeks in combat.
@Jason
I think that gives a good sum of type of weathering.
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KL
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« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2013, 07:39:09 PM »

Why would my remarks be irrelevant? P-47's weathered fast in the European theatre and left there toll on the paint. Even after some weeks in combat.

I clearly explained why IMHO your remark was irrelevant.  Your remarks are also very general:  the paint became lighter after "some weeks" and then what?  It remained lighter for the rest of the war?  Very convenient for modellers - you lighten your "new" paint and it becomes "old".

Weathering is a process:  Chapter in Chebotarevski's book is titled "Paint's life -from its birth to death".  The process is described in detail, but I don't think you are interested in it.

Cheers,
KL 
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B_Realistic
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« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2013, 07:56:47 PM »

Why would my remarks be irrelevant? P-47's weathered fast in the European theatre and left there toll on the paint. Even after some weeks in combat.

I clearly explained why IMHO your remark was irrelevant.  Your remarks are also very general:  the paint became lighter after "some weeks" and then what?  It remained lighter for the rest of the war?  Very convenient for modellers - you lighten your "new" paint and it becomes "old".

Weathering is a process:  Chapter in Chebotarevski's book is titled "Paint's life -from its birth to death".  The process is described in detail, but I don't think you are interested in it.

Cheers,
KL 

I'm very interested in reading that article. Cheesy
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2013, 06:49:58 AM »

So am I.
Regards
Massimo
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4bogreen
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« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2013, 10:43:30 AM »

Hi KL,

Do you have a digital copy of Chebotarevski's book and would you e-mail this to me? Very interesting arguments here.
The color 4bo green seems also to darken with time, instead the usual lighted fading...
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B_Realistic
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« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2013, 11:23:24 AM »

Hi KL,

Do you have a digital copy of Chebotarevski's book and would you e-mail this to me? Very interesting arguments here.
The color 4bo green seems also to darken with time, instead the usual lighted fading...

That's interesting. This in the contrary to the Olive greens and Dark greens of US aircraft.
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2013, 03:00:51 PM »

Hi,
AII green seems the same, at least on an horizon of 6-12 months. Who knows if they contain lead?
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2013, 05:45:00 PM »

-  Useful life of AMT and AGT paints was modest 6-8 months!  From modelers perspective this means that paint that was less than 6 months looked like "new".

-  After 6 months paint "chalked".  In reality chalking is a microscopic layer of oxidized paint, from a distance it may look like "lightened" paint (not sure about this).  Advanced chalking looks as a white powder covering paint surface.

-  After a year original paint surface is destroyed.  Glossy paints loose luster and turn matt.  Pigment particles are now exposed and gradually washed away.  For modelers this means that 1-2 year old paint may locally turn semi-transparent.  Camouflage pattern was usually sprayed very thinly, so one may expect to locally see green through black or light gray through dark gray.



You've got much more technical detail about Soviet paints than you have ever had about German/US paints and you still fill "comfortable" only with Luftwaffe and USAAF colors.  Whenever Soviet colors are mentioned it is "can of worms", "nobody knows", "everything was possible" etc.

Happy modeling,
KL

« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 11:33:09 PM by KL » Logged
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