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1/48 ICM LaGG-3 Series 1-4- COMPLETE
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Author Topic: 1/48 ICM LaGG-3 Series 1-4- COMPLETE  (Read 20823 times)
B_Realistic
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« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2013, 07:19:27 PM »

That you received 4 stars of 5 by KL means that you did a very good job. Grin
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KL
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« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2013, 07:21:01 PM »

Quote
KL, did you mean the two white bands aren't convincing in their color, or their pattern? I tried to follow Massimo's pattern for that, though I did find some speculative pattern's another model builder used in a similar build. However, he admitted it was speculation on his part. I also tried to imagine how it would have looked if it had started to wear off a bit, so I tried to simulate that.

Pattern is Massimo's speculation.  Another model builder (Misos) have tried to make an "educated guess" based on cmouflage practices - better than pure speculation.
I don't know of any conclusive photos - the best available on the internet is:

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jonbius
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« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2013, 07:31:13 PM »

That you received 4 stars of 5 by KL means that you did a very good job. Grin


 Grin Indeed!


Pattern is Massimo's speculation.  Another model builder (Misos) have tried to make an "educated guess" based on cmouflage practices - better than pure speculation.
I don't know of any conclusive photos - the best available on the internet is:

That is a great photo- that is what I used to help with the tail pattern. I also found the video that was from- very cool also. I wish I spoke Russian so I could understand it! Smiley

I think I may have seen Misos work- perhaps I should have followed that... maybe I need to build another! LOL Why not, the first one was certainly enjoyable.

I notice the photo at the bottom center of that series has a different pattern. Is that a different aircraft, or just at a different time? I wondered that when I first saw it.
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Jon Bius
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2013, 08:51:54 PM »

Hi,

Quote
Pattern is Massimo's speculation. 

The pattern on the wings is obtained from this photo, where you can see fresh black paints. The one on the fuselage has the exact shape of the white one, so it is clear that they were repainted black in the spring 1942.



Quote
Another model builder (Misos) have tried to make an "educated guess" based on cmouflage practices - better than pure speculation.

I have appreciated very much the research of Misos, that has found screenshots that were not available when the page was made. But his work is based on images, not on 'educated guesses' based on 'camouflage practises', else he could have drawn the plane with overall white uppersurfaces as commonly done in winter 1941/42.

So, my work is based on all the informations available to me, and where the informations are missing I rely on my common sense. The same common sense that suggests that a Pe-2 can't be camouflaged with yellow and black unless they want to hide it between giant bees.

Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2013, 09:00:16 PM »

Hi Jon,
Quote
I notice the photo at the bottom center of that series has a different pattern. Is that a different aircraft, or just at a different time? I wondered that when I first saw it.
The plane shows victory stars and the later type of exhaust stacks similar to those on MiG-3. Another photo of it, without the winter camo, is available on my page. It is unclear if it's the same plane repaired with different pieces, or another plane painted to match the previous one. I suppose that the shot was of winter 1942/43.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2013, 09:36:20 PM »

Hi Jonbius,

I like the overall appearance of your kit very much - I somehow preffer dirty Matt surface.
However, I am not sure it is appropriate for this particular plane. The AII Green seems to be too bright, at least what I see on my monitor. IMHO such look would be much better for some La-5 painted black/green (AMT-4) during dusty summer.
Photos show that this Galchenko's plane was quite clean and at least semiglossy. Stars on the undersurface were smaller than standard ones.

Of course, neither my interpretation is true carved to the stone - left side is from winter 41/42 and right side is from winter 42/43. If interested you can find more info at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1445.0
I used AML Decals without any problems.

I am really curious for your another kit. Your LaGG-3 is an inspiration for my started Yak-1 (now waiting somewhere in the box for the right moment)  Wink
Happy modelling.

     66misos
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 09:42:46 PM by 66misos » Logged

jonbius
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« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2013, 09:52:42 PM »

Thanks for the kind words, 66misos!

I'm a bit "odd" in how I build. I don't always try to duplicate the exact airplane. Most of the time I try to do something similar, but then apply things that are my own "style" and preferences. Partly because I'm not a good enough modeler to duplicat ethe real thing with much accuracy! LOL

I just sort of mixed the green myself, so I did not go to great lengths to get it accurate. I have recently ordered some Akan paints, so hopefully those will make it easier to be closer to accurate. And I am just learning about VVS colors in WWII, so hopefully with everyone's help I will get better! Cheesy

And thank you for sharing that thread on the discussion of this plane- very interesting to read! I'll make notes from that for future reference.

What Yak-1 are you building? I have the Modelsvit Yak-1 partially built. The fuselage has an awful warp- the horizontal stabilizer is probably twisted 10 degrees to one side. I did not notice until I had the fuselage together and the wings on. I built the Accurate Miniatures Yak-1 many years ago, too. I need to do another one.

Thanks again for your kind comments!
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Jon Bius
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KL
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« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2013, 11:24:40 PM »

The pattern on the wings is obtained from this photo, where you can see fresh black paints. The one on the fuselage has the exact shape of the white one, so it is clear that they were repainted black in the spring 1942.
...
So, my work is based on all the informations available to me, and where the informations are missing I rely on my common sense.

"Fresh black" ="White winter camouflage" is clear and makes sense only to you.  It's nothing more than a guess.

It is clear that the tailplane was camouflaged in white during the 1941/42 winter


It is also clear that tailplane wasn't repainted in black in spring 1942


It's also a well known fact that white winter paint was washable with warm water.  Whoever washed that tailplane did a good job - factory number is still visible on the elevator.  If tailplane was washed, why not wings?  If tailplane was camouflaged in white, why not repeating white camouflage pattern on wings?

Two white bands on wings make plane more visible - that is how trainers were marked in Soviet flight schools.  In other words, plane with two white bands is not camouflaged...

Misos made an effort to learn about/understand winter camouflage; you limited your interpretation on available photos.

Regards,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2013, 07:27:20 AM »

Quote
"Fresh black" ="White winter camouflage" is clear and makes sense only to you.  It's nothing more than a guess.
Perhaps. But the opposite is a guess too.
Quote
It is clear that the tailplane was camouflaged in white during the 1941/42 winter
of course
Quote
It is also clear that tailplane wasn't repainted in black in spring 1942
This is wrong. There are wide parts of the tail where you can see the reflex of the pilot and of the vertical stabilizer, and other ones where you can't. Perhaps part of the repainting was green, but the most of the part was repainted.
Quote
It's also a well known fact that white winter paint was washable with warm water.  Whoever washed that tailplane did a good job - factory number is still visible on the elevator. 
No, it is well known that the white paint was difficult to remove and ruined the underlying paint. For example, here is the photo of Mironov's plane

We distinguish remains of white paint on the nose and the weathered rectangle about the number, while a wide part of the rear fuselage was repainted.
About the number -it looks visible, and suggests only that the relative part of the elevator preserved the original color.  The large photo shows even the reflected image of the legs of the cat on a part of the elevator.
Quote
Two white bands on wings make plane more visible - that is how trainers were marked in Soviet flight schools.  In other words, plane with two white bands is not camouflaged..

Two straight white bands are an identification mark on any ground without snow. Any number of white irregular bands are camouflaging on a snowy background. The enemy can't count the white bands if he has not already seen the plane.

The problem is not if this plane had one more or less white band. Where not visible on photos, they are merely guessed anyway.

Quote
Pattern is Massimo's speculation.  Another model builder (Misos) have tried to make an "educated guess" based on cmouflage practices - better than pure speculation

Quote
Misos made an effort to learn about/understand winter camouflage; you limited your interpretation on available photos.

Here you are splitting venom between two members that haven't reasons of disagree (if not on a pair of white blotches). Should Misos have any problem with me, he can resolve easily simply speaking.
But you can't create them by putting us one against the other.
The problem is your unfair way to do.  We welcome good researchers and appreciate discussion on the painting, but haven't any need to create friction between members.

Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2013, 09:02:04 AM »

Hi KL, Hi Massimo,

seems discussion has got again on the thin ice. I react because you both mentioned me in your posts. I very appreciate KL's opinion about my approach rearding Galchenko's plane but the personal conflict with any member of this site is the last thing I would want.
Massimo, do not worry I have no problem with you, I do no see/feel any venom. Wink

Sometimes I am also surprised with tone of discussions but I always try to see to goal of such tough discussions - to get as close as possible to the truth in particular subject matter.

Hi Jonbius,
I have Yak-1 from SouthFront in 1:48, but I am not still so far as you, just main parts separated from the farmes and cockpit partially assembled, nothing painted yet. But before I want to finish my winter La-5 "Red 58".

Regards,
     66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2013, 10:24:09 AM »

Hi Misos,
Quote
seems discussion has got again on the thin ice. I react because you both mentioned me in your posts. I very appreciate KL's opinion about my approach rearding Galchenko's plane but the personal conflict with any member of this site is the last thing I would want.
Massimo, do not worry I have no problem with you, I do no see/feel any venom.

Sometimes I am also surprised with tone of discussions but I always try to see to goal of such tough discussions - to get as close as possible to the truth in particular subject matter.

Well written, I was sure of it and I fully agree. I would like to discuss on planes and colors to add new knowledges too, but it is so unpleasant that someone makes personal distinctions about presumed differences in method.

Regards
Massimo
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B_Realistic
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« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2013, 12:30:55 PM »

Thanks for the kind words, 66misos!

I'm a bit "odd" in how I build. I don't always try to duplicate the exact airplane. Most of the time I try to do something similar, but then apply things that are my own "style" and preferences. Partly because I'm not a good enough modeler to duplicat ethe real thing with much accuracy! LOL

I just sort of mixed the green myself, so I did not go to great lengths to get it accurate. I have recently ordered some Akan paints, so hopefully those will make it easier to be closer to accurate. And I am just learning about VVS colors in WWII, so hopefully with everyone's help I will get better! Cheesy

And thank you for sharing that thread on the discussion of this plane- very interesting to read! I'll make notes from that for future reference.

What Yak-1 are you building? I have the Modelsvit Yak-1 partially built. The fuselage has an awful warp- the horizontal stabilizer is probably twisted 10 degrees to one side. I did not notice until I had the fuselage together and the wings on. I built the Accurate Miniatures Yak-1 many years ago, too. I need to do another one.

Thanks again for your kind comments!

It's impossible to make it like the real aircraft. It's plastic modeling for God's sake!
We've got to counter scale effects and stuff like that.
If you try to make it 100% like a real aircraft you end up with AMS. Cheesy
It must be still enjoyable.
I find your model stunning even if a color isn't 100% or even it isn't glossy or matt enough.
It's like you said. Everyone has his own style. I don't like clean aircraft. Even well maintained aircraft has weathering.
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jonbius
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« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2013, 12:36:01 PM »

It's impossible to make it like the real aircraft. It's plastic modeling for God's sake!
We've got to counter scale effects and stuff like that.
If you try to make it 100% like a real aircraft you end up with AMS. Cheesy
It must be still enjoyable.
I find your model stunning even if a color isn't 100% or even it isn't glossy or matt enough.
It's like you said. Everyone has his own style. I don't like clean aircraft. Even well maintained aircraft has weathering.

And weathering helps cover up my mistakes!   Grin

When I first started building models again, in 2006, I started to get a bad case of AMS. Modeling got frustrating for me. So I changed my mindset. Now I build with the motto "Build it like a kid!" I'm having fun. I try to make it look good, too, but all while having fun.

And I did get the decal on the spinner KL! Smiley I'll get some photos of that when I get home tonight. Thanks again for reminding me!
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Jon Bius
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John Thompson
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« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2013, 02:26:24 PM »

Please, gentlemen - try to keep it civil. We all have "hot buttons", but let's please keep them locked out. It's uncomfortable for newcomers to see arguments which seem to support some people's idea that VVS colours are a subject for conflict. Thank you!

John
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66misos
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« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2013, 10:06:45 AM »

Hi Jonbius,
could you, please, briefly describe how you achieved such a wonderfully dirty and weathered surface? Shocked  As I already wrote I like it very much.

You wrote you are 99% finished before small red star is applied on the propeller spinner.
And what about those two white curves painted on the left window behind canopy? Wink It is on Massimo's profile and I saw it also in some doc film, unfortunately I did not make a screenshot of it.

Regards,
     66misos
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