Names for planes?

[jonbius]

Well, I don't know the answer to all this, but I do know the Pe-2 is a good looking aircraft, and I may have to build one!

[John Thompson]

Well, I don't know the answer to all this, but I do know the Pe-2 is a good looking aircraft, and I may have to build one!

Mmm - not me - too many engines. Although Yakovlev's Yak-2 is tempting... 

@KL - Note that the authors of the Osprey Pe-2 book are Russian, or at least "eastern" in heritage, although I assume the editor at Osprey is "western", and he (or she) was apparently good with the title. I like the way Airfix handled the Pe-2 kit name, even though the one in the box art is Polish! 

John

[KL]

La-5/7 - "La" for short.  Unofficial nickname "Lavka"
Il-2 - "Eel" for short.  Unofficial nickname "Eelyusha"
Pe-2 - "Pe" for short.  Unofficial nickname "Peshka"
Su-2 - "Soo" for short.  Unofficial nickname "Sooshka"
Tu-2 - "Too" for short.  Unofficial nickname "Tooshka"
An-2 - "An" for short.  Unofficial nickname "Anushka"

Can you see pattern??

Yes, there's a pattern, much as there is in boys' and girls' nicknames in English, where often an abbreviated form is used with "y" or "ie" on the end.  William can become Willy or Billy.  Julia can become Julie - although Julian becomes Jules.

BTW, you missed the pattern.  It's not about nickname ends.  All those nicknamess are only slightly modified official names.  Nothing more than Spit for Spitfire or Hurry for Hurricane.
Was Spitfire commonly known as Spit? If yes, "Supermarine Spitfire Spit" would be OK as a book title?
How about "Hawker Hurricane Hurry"?

[B_Realistic]

Well, I don't know the answer to all this, but I do know the Pe-2 is a good looking aircraft, and I may have to build one!

I've got one from MPM in my stash but the Tu-2 will come first.

[Graham Boak]

But Pe-2 is not a name: it is a designation.  It is quite normal to describe an aircraft by both its designation and its name.  To refer to the Petliakov Pe-2 Peshka is directly equivalent to referring to the North American P-51 Mustang.  P-51, F-6 or A-36 - they are all Mustangs (not Apaches or Invaders, to avoid that particular cul-de-sac!).  Pe-2 or Pe-3 - surely both Peshkas?  But was the Pe-8 also known as the Peshka?  If not, then why not, if that is the be-all and end-all of Soviet nicknames?   See also Il-2/10, La-5/9, and other types that not only carry distinct designations but are also clearly different aircraft, hence likely to acquire distinct nicknames.  It is noticeable that all the examples quoted are for the first examples from the new designer prefix system, and hence perhaps with an intrinsic bias to nicknames following this structure.
But what about Ishak for the I-16? This does not fit the standard pattern.
 
It would be grammatically wrong in English to refer to the "Hurricane Hurri" because both are names, one official and one a nickname.  The British did not use a designation system, although you can refer to aircraft by the specification number or the company type number, for example  Vickers F5/34 Venom or Vickers Type 279 Venom.  Hawker F.36/35 Hurricane would be correct, if unusual.

So the Russians had designations and nicknames, but no official names.  The British had official names and nicknames, but no designations.  The US had all three.

[FPSOlkor]

Just think about this: ALL airplanes that came out of Sukhoi design buro were, and still are called Sushka... That is Sushka 2, Sushka 7, Sushka 27...
All Petlyakov's planes were called Peshka, All Tupolevs were called Tushka...
P.S. Sushka translates as pretzel, Lavka as sitting bench, Peshka as pawn, Annushka as a girls name...
And another name of Il-2 was Gorbatyi

[learstang]

Just think about this: ALL airplanes that came out of Sukhoi design buro were, and still are called Sushka... That is Sushka 2, Sushka 7, Sushka 27...
All Petlyakov's planes were called Peshka, All Tupolevs were called Tushka...
P.S. Sushka translates as pretzel, Lavka as sitting bench, Peshka as pawn, Annushka as a girls name...
And another name of Il-2 was Gorbatyi

Interesting information - thank you!  For those who don't know, Gorbatiy means "hunchback" or "humpback" in Russian, and referred initially to the single-seaters, with their raised pilot's position.  Another nickname for the Il-2 was "Ilyusha", like "Sushka", "Peshka", etc.  Interestingly, although not originally a girl's name, supposedly some girls were subsequently named Ilyusha in honour of the Il-2.

Regards,

Jason

[66misos]

Hi Learstang,

Interestingly, although not originally a girl's name, supposedly some girls were subsequently named Ilyusha in honour of the Il-2.

that (nick-)name reminded me another known "owner" of that name - Vladimir Ilyich Lenin 

Another example is Belochka for Bell P-39 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg11229#msg11229)

Regards,
    66misos

[learstang]

Hi Learstang,

Interestingly, although not originally a girl's name, supposedly some girls were subsequently named Ilyusha in honour of the Il-2.

that (nick-)name reminded me another known "owner" of that name - Vladimir Ilyich Lenin  

Another example is Belochka for Bell P-39 (http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg11229#msg11229)

Regards,
    66misos

That's right; I forget about Mr. Ulyanov.  So is Ilyusha a variant of Ilya (Mr. Ulyanov's proud papa)?

Regards,

Jason

[KL]

But Pe-2 is not a name: it is a designation.

Correct!

It is quite normal to describe an aircraft by both its designation and its name.

Only in UK and North America!  Where is the name in Junkers Ju-88?  Where is the name in Dewoitine D.520?  Isn?t Junkers Ju-88 enough to define/recognize a specific aircraft type?

To refer to the Petliakov Pe-2 Peshka is directly equivalent to referring to the North American P-51 Mustang.

Direct equivalent would be NKAP?s Zavod 22 Pe-2.  Not very attractive?

If not, then why not, if that is the be-all and end-all of Soviet nicknames?

It?s not the end; it?s the new beginning!  Now you know better what those nicknames were, when and how they were used.  Now you know that those names are not equivalent to the official American or British aircraft names.  You just have to accept that those nicknames shouldn?t be used together with official Soviet designations.

But was the Pe-8 also known as the Peshka?  See also Il-2/10, La-5/9, and other types that not only carry distinct designations but are also clearly different aircraft, hence likely to acquire distinct nicknames.

Not likely ? both La-5/7 and La-9/11 were known as ?Lavka?.  Both Il-2 and Il-10 were ?Shturmoviks?.  Il-12 and Il-14 were known as ?Ilyusha?.  An-2 and An-26 are still called ?Annushka?.  Those nicknames are not type specific!!!  One reason more not to mix them with specific aircraft types!

But what about Ishak for the I-16? This does not fit the standard pattern.

As explained before, designation I-16 belongs to a different system (1930es).  Hence, nickname ?Ishak? is type specific.

It would be grammatically wrong in English to refer to the "Hurricane Hurri" because both are names, one official and one a nickname.  The British did not use a designation system, although you can refer to aircraft by the specification number or the company type number, for example Vickers F5/34 Venom or Vickers Type 279 Venom.  Hawker F.36/35 Hurricane would be correct, if unusual..

You should use same logic for Soviet designations and nicknames.  It would be grammatically wrong and unusual to mix them together.

So the Russians had designations and nicknames, but no official names.

Correct.  But keep in mind that Russians didn?t combine designations and nicknames.

[FPSOlkor]

That's right; I forget about Mr. Ulyanov.  So is Ilyusha a variant of Ilya (Mr. Ulyanov's proud papa)?

Regards,

Jason

Ilyusha is a shortened male name Ilya. Ex-pilots said that they were thinking of Ilya Muromets more... Never ever heard of a girl with a name Ilya or Ilyusha...
Bellochka could be referred to the girls name Bella

[Graham Boak]

So now we also have Gorbatyi and Belochka - the latter being clearly along the same lines as to Peshka etc. but the first is not.  Ishak may have predated the later convention but it did not leave service before GP War.  Chaika is another, I believe.  Did the SB have a popular name or was it just the fighters?

Of course there are no names for the Ju88 or D520 because none were allocated.  There may have been nicknames, though I don't recall reference to any.  For the Germans, there were however such examples as the FW200 Condor (official), Iron Annie (nickname) for the Ju52, FW190 Wurger (official if not often used) and a choice for the Me262, fighter or bomber.  The French did not use names for their fighters before 1940 (if we exclude the Hawk) but did name larger aircraft such as the Breguet Bizerte - my apologies for not looking up its designation - and did adopt names postwar.  The Italians used designations and names.  The Japanese initially did not have names but did adopt them for later types despite possessing multiple systems of designations.  Therefore it is not just a matter of the English speaking world - although as this forum is in English, perhaps it is not unreasonable to use English practice.  Combining formal designations and informal nicknames would normally be fairly rare anywhere in the world, but where no formal names exist then the combination is accepted.  The combination of formal name and nicknames is not accepted, for sylistic reasons this would jar on the eye/ear.

I have no argument with what is correct use in Russian, and have no desire to direct references in Russian, in Russia, by Russians.  Or indeed by Russians anywhere else.  That does not mean the correct use in Russia is necessarily wrong or improper in English.   As for whether Ju88 is sufficient or not, I have already expressed comment that some redundancy is considered valuable, particularly (I'd have thought) for the rather specialised field of book titles, which have to attract a wide range of readership.  It is not necessary to include manufacturer, designation and name, but it is generally useful.  Wartime practice would of course be different - to avoid being useful.

Clearly identical nicknames should not be used where there is potential for confusion, but by the same reasoning two differing types from the same manufacturer in service at the same time would reasonably be expected to have gained different nicknames.  The La5 and La7 are clearly the same design - I was asking about any different names given to them and the La9/11, though there is still considerable similarity in design and probably little overlap in service.  Shturmovik is a role not an individual name.

Not so with the Pe2 and Pe8.  It would be very interesting to know if the Pe8 was also known as the Peshka, but for a number of reasons I doubt it.  One is that the ending appears to be what is known as a "diminutive", approximately corresponding to "little".  Thus nicknames such as "Johnnie" are versions of "little John" - not to be taken literally or even consciously, but that's how they are referred to in grammar.  They would normally be used for children, who are indeed little but revert to the adult form when grown.  (Or not, as they desire.)  It implies a measure of affection.  The Pe8 is not the little Pe but a big one!  How affectionate pilots were towards it I cannot say, but aircrew do seem to be affectionate towards the types they fly, with the rare exceptions having to be fairly awful.  In Russian it appears that gender differential is another factor in these names, which English lacks.  The other reason is that "Peshka" does have the meaning of Pawn, and such a name would not normally be applied to a large aircraft. 

It is not normal in UK or US practice (admittedly with some exceptions for the US Navy) to credit the factory where the aircraft is built.  Otherwise we would have the Gloster Typhoon, and four different brands of Halifax.  The full name of the aircraft includes the name of the registered company which usually is coincident with the design and build site but not always.   The closest equivalent of this is the name of the design bureau not its location, hence Petlyakov, Tupolev etc.  This does seem to have been widely accepted outside and inside Russia.

[KL]

Only few WWII Soviet aircraft had type specific nicknames:


I-16 was known as ?Ishak? (donkey).  As explained before, "Ishak" was derived from the official designation which was pronounced as "i-shesnadset". This nickname was popular and fitting because the plane was temperamental  (hard to master).



I-153 was known as ?Chaika? (seagull).  This nickname referred to shoulder mounted upper wing  shape.



MBR-2 flying boat was known as ?Ambarchik? (little barn).  This nickname was directly derived from the official name which was pronounced as ?em-be-er? and sounded similar to ?ambar? (barn in Russian).



Douglas DC-3, license built PS-84, Li-2 and Land-Lease C-47 were all known as ?Duglas? (pronounced as ?Dooglas?) after its US producer.



Yak-6 transport was known as ?Duglasenok? (little Duglas). This according to 1970es Modelist-Konstruktor magazine.



U-2 trainer (from 1944 Po-2) in its various forms was widely known as ?Kukuruznik? (corn picker/shucker).

And that?s about it: 6 aircraft types total?
HTH,
KL

[KL]

Wow, Graham you are stubborn? 

It is not normal in UK or US practice (admittedly with some exceptions for the US Navy) to credit the factory where the aircraft is built.  Otherwise we would have the Gloster Typhoon, and four different brands of Halifax.  The full name of the aircraft includes the name of the registered company which usually is coincident with the design and build site but not always.   The closest equivalent of this is the name of the design bureau not its location, hence Petlyakov, Tupolev etc.  This does seem to have been widely accepted outside and inside Russia.

Didn?t I clearly demonstrate that ?Petlyakov Pe-2? doesn?t exist inside Russia? 

As I have explained before, authors may use nicknames, design bureau names and official names, but in appropriate way.  The problem is in artificially made designations ? if author throughout his book refers to I-16 as ?Polikarpov I-16 Ishak? only, he shows that he is not familiar with the plane.
Cheers,
KL

[FPSOlkor]

Did the SB have a popular name or was it just the fighters?
Clearly identical nicknames should not be used where there is potential for confusion, but by the same reasoning two differing types from the same manufacturer in service at the same time would reasonably be expected to have gained different nicknames.  The La5 and La7 are clearly the same design - I was asking about any different names given to them and the La9/11, though there is still considerable similarity in design and probably little overlap in service.  Shturmovik is a role not an individual name.
Not so with the Pe2 and Pe8.  It would be very interesting to know if the Pe8 was also known as the Peshka, but for a number of reasons I doubt it.  One is that the ending appears to be what is known as a "diminutive", approximately corresponding to "little".  Thus nicknames such as "Johnnie" are versions of "little John" - not to be taken literally or even consciously, but that's how they are referred to in grammar.  They would normally be used for children, who are indeed little but revert to the adult form when grown.  (Or not, as they desire.)  It implies a measure of affection.  The Pe8 is not the little Pe but a big one!  How affectionate pilots were towards it I cannot say, but aircrew do seem to be affectionate towards the types they fly, with the rare exceptions having to be fairly awful.  In Russian it appears that gender differential is another factor in these names, which English lacks.  The other reason is that "Peshka" does have the meaning of Pawn, and such a name would not normally be applied to a large aircraft.  

SB-2 (incorrect name b.t.w.) and Ar-2 were known as Shchuka (Pike) for the form of their engine cowling.
For Peshka - yes, Pe-8 was also referred by crews as Peshka. Because they liked it. Regardless of the meaning of the word itself. For example, Tu-204 is consciderably larger then Tu-2 and smaller then Tu-95, but all three are called Tushka. The meaning of the word is @Corpse of the small animal@. The naming came mostly from the similarity of pronounciation of word to the designation.