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Akan Greens
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Author Topic: Akan Greens  (Read 16142 times)
Seawinder
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« on: April 08, 2013, 04:04:00 AM »

As I'm nearly to the point of applying topside paint to my Yak-1s, I decided to take a closer look at the three Akan mid-war greens I presently possess. The new acrylic lacquer set 46305 provides two: 4BO and AMT-4. The third is Akan's aqueous acrylic AMT-4. In the following sample photo, the left chip is the acrylic lacquer 4BO, the middle chip is the acrylic lacquer AMT-4, and the right chip is the aqueous acrylic AMT-4:



As you can see, they're all different. The acrylic lacquer AMT-4 is significantly lighter and greener than the aqueous acrylic version. The 4BO is much more olive. Of the three samples, it's closest in character to FS 34151, but darker, actually a nearly dead match for 24098.

The acrylic lacquer AMT-4 is closer in character to 34102, but somewhat darker -- fairly close to 35095.

The aqueous acrylic AMT-4 is close to 34082, but still darker.

All the paints have a semigloss surface. The acrylic lacquers spray much more easily than the aqueous acrylic, which was reluctant to adhere to the sheet plastic, especially around the edges due to surface tension.

In a post to another thread, KL stated, "4BO was developed in 1937-38. AMT-4 nitro paint and A-24 oil paint were developed in 1941 as 4BO equivalents.  AMT-4 and A-24 were used on planes, 4BO was used on tanks, artillery, etc." Based on that statement, I should have thought that 4BO and AMT-4 would be more similar, and that AMT-4 would be closer to Akan's version of 4BO. Actually, the acrylic lacquer AMT-4 seems more like AII Green. Can anybody offer any clarification on this?

Pip
« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 11:34:30 PM by Seawinder » Logged
bbrought
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« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2013, 10:08:28 AM »

Hi Pip

This is not a clarification really, but I have seen similar variations among my collection of Akan paints. I don't have the acrylic lacquer, although I am very interested in obtaining some. However, I do have many of the WWII colours in both Akan's aqueous acrylic series and their enamel range. I have not sprayed AMT-4 yet, but in the case of AMT-7 / 11 / 12 I made paint chips using both the acrylic and enamel versions. Although the hues are very similar, the colours in the two ranges of paints were not identical. In my case, the enamels were all noticeably lighter than the acrylic equivalents. I have heard others also mention this variation in Akan colours. I will try to photograph my chips in natural light on the weekend - unfortunately I get home when it is dark in the week and I don't think chips photographed in artificial light will be very useful.

In your case, however, the AMT-4 versions in the acrylic lacquer and aqueous acrylic range really are very different, not just in how dark they appear. This seems even more than the differences I observed between the acrylics and enamels, which was definitely more subtle. I would be less concerned about the difference between the AMT-4's and 4BO, since they are not really exactly the same colour as far as I know. The difference between the two AMT-4's are stark, though, and as you said the acrylic lacquer one almost looks like an AII green. I wonder if there is any chance of a mislabeled bottle? Alternatively, it is possible that Akan updated their research and/or quality checking between doing the aqueous acrylic and new acrylic lacquer range.

Bennie
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BA Broughton
Seawinder
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« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2013, 05:17:47 PM »

Hi Bennie.
Thanks for the response. I shouldn't worry too much about photographing the colors in artificial light. I don't think the chips are useful as absolute color samples anyway, only as comparative indicators.

I note that of two Akan sets I own, the aqueous acrylic (47314) was made in Finland, while the acrylic lacquer (46305) was made in Belgium by DuPont. That could certainly explain some of the differences between the different versions of the same colors.

I still wish KL or somebody would clarify the relationship between 4BO and AMT-4.

Pip
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Seawinder
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« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2013, 09:24:36 PM »

Based on a PM conversion with KL, 4BO and AMT-4 should be very similar, if not identical. I'm going to use Akan's 4BO rather than the greener AMT-4 because it captures the olive quality much better.

Pip
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bbrought
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« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2013, 11:51:05 AM »

Hi Pip

Sorry that I haven't photographed those chips yet, but I've been a little snowed over with work, pulling some all-nighters in the process. However, just out of my own curiosity I'll also make an Akan enamel AMT-4 chip, and take some photographs of all the chips together this weekend for a complete "set".
I don't have the 4BO unfortunately. It will probably not help you much, except to demonstrate that there is variation within the Akan paints.

I did have a look again last night and noticed that the differences are not all that bad - for example, my Enamel AMT-7 is very noticeably lighter than the acrylic version, but my enamel and acrylic AMT-11's are pretty much identical (the enamel one is only very slightly lighter). My AMT-11 chips both look darker than what I've seen on the internet, but it is very difficult to judge photographs on a monitor. I once sent some chips to Mario who also post here occasionally, and he said they were identical to what he had, so maybe what one sees on a monitor is even more deceiving than what one realizes. I always knew not to trust digital samples, but it still amazes me just how deceiving it can be.

Anyway, the variations within the Akan brand is a little surprising, although I must admit I have seen variations between Humbrol tins bought at different times that were also very noticeable. I guess even with today's technology consistent colour control during paint manufacture is still not that easy to achieve.

By the way, I have had similar difficulties in choosing British WWII colours. You will be amazed how different the interpretations from different companies are. For example, Dark Earth from WEM, Humbrol and Gunze are all very different colours. I am starting to think that I simply worry too much about getting these things perfect. Once you start weathering, filtering and shading you mess them up anyway...

On a slightly different but related topic - how is your experience so far with the Akan acrylic lacquer range? I heard some people say that they suspect it is very similar to Mr Color lacquer paints? I need some early war Akan paints (AII green, blue, etc) and was considering whether I should try and obtain those colours from the new acrylic lacquer range.
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BA Broughton
Seawinder
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« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2013, 04:36:53 PM »

Hi Pip

Sorry that I haven't photographed those chips yet, but I've been a little snowed over with work, pulling some all-nighters in the process. However, just out of my own curiosity I'll also make an Akan enamel AMT-4 chip, and take some photographs of all the chips together this weekend for a complete "set".
I don't have the 4BO unfortunately. It will probably not help you much, except to demonstrate that there is variation within the Akan paints.

I did have a look again last night and noticed that the differences are not all that bad - for example, my Enamel AMT-7 is very noticeably lighter than the acrylic version, but my enamel and acrylic AMT-11's are pretty much identical (the enamel one is only very slightly lighter). My AMT-11 chips both look darker than what I've seen on the internet, but it is very difficult to judge photographs on a monitor. I once sent some chips to Mario who also post here occasionally, and he said they were identical to what he had, so maybe what one sees on a monitor is even more deceiving than what one realizes. I always knew not to trust digital samples, but it still amazes me just how deceiving it can be.

Anyway, the variations within the Akan brand is a little surprising, although I must admit I have seen variations between Humbrol tins bought at different times that were also very noticeable. I guess even with today's technology consistent colour control during paint manufacture is still not that easy to achieve.

By the way, I have had similar difficulties in choosing British WWII colours. You will be amazed how different the interpretations from different companies are. For example, Dark Earth from WEM, Humbrol and Gunze are all very different colours. I am starting to think that I simply worry too much about getting these things perfect. Once you start weathering, filtering and shading you mess them up anyway...

I tend to agree. I probably am coming across as obsessive, but really I'm just trying to get a color rendition in which I'm confident; once there I can live with small variations.
 
On a slightly different but related topic - how is your experience so far with the Akan acrylic lacquer range? I heard some people say that they suspect it is very similar to Mr Color lacquer paints? I need some early war Akan paints (AII green, blue, etc) and was considering whether I should try and obtain those colours from the new acrylic lacquer range.

I actually just posted yesterday to the Question on Akan Paints thread just below this one. I used the acrylic lacquer AMT-7 on the bottom of a Yak-1 and thought it was really excellent. Don't know how it compares to the enamel since I can't obtain it here in the US, but I think it sprays quite a bit better than the aqueous acrylic.

Pip
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bbrought
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« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2013, 08:41:13 PM »

Pip, you probably thought I forgot about this discussion. I now posted my paint chips in the discussion here:
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1567.15

I don't think Massimo would like it if I double-posted everything here, but as a quick reference, here is a photograph of the colour chips:


Kind regards,
Bennie
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BA Broughton
Seawinder
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« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2013, 10:24:18 PM »

Hi Bennie.
Yes, I saw your two sets of chips (very nicely done!) at the other thread. Thanks for posting!

As I've posted at a couple of other threads, I went ahead and used the Akan (acrylic lacquer) 4BO on one of the Yaks and AMT-4 on the other. Not sure which is the closest to "reality," but I think both colors look pretty good.

Pip
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2013, 06:59:15 AM »

Hi Pip and Bennie,
photos of Yaks show usually a strong contrast with the black.

I suppose that they utilized AMT-4 in one layer, that didn't cover completely the  yellowish base color of the primer and putty, so the effect should be similar to the 4BO.
Regards
Massimo
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learstang
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« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2013, 07:10:01 AM »

Massimo, are you saying that the AMT-4 on the Yak's was more olive than on other aeroplanes because of the underlying yellow primer/putty?

Regards,

Jason
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2013, 07:46:03 AM »

Hi Jason,
it's the most likely idea to explain this. Usually AMT paints were given in two layers, but they passed to one during 1942/43 to spare paint, green paint in particular. I would say that it could have appeared  more yellowish and lighter.
Regards
Massimo
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Seawinder
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« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2013, 05:37:40 PM »

I've gotten the Accurate Miniatures Yak-1 far enough along to be able to post this picture so you can compare the two greens in the AKAN acrylic lacquer 1941-43 package. The model on the left has their 4BO; the model on the right has their AMT-4:



As you can see, while there's not a lot of difference contrast-wise, the AMT-4 is distinctly greener. I think both are plausible renditions of the 1942 color, but I think I'll probably go with the AMT-4 when I get around to the La-5. What do you all think?

Cheers,
Pip
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learstang
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« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2013, 05:42:06 PM »

Well, I like the AMT-4 as it's closer to what I'm using right now - Testors Model Master Interior Green.

Regards,

Jason
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2013, 07:19:04 PM »

I like both the shades. I wonder if Akanihin has lightened them after having heard the feedbacks of the modellers, or there is some technical reason for this difference.
Regards
Massimo
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Seawinder
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« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2013, 07:33:50 PM »

I like both the shades. I wonder if Akanihin has lightened them after having heard the feedbacks of the modellers, or there is some technical reason for this difference.
Regards
Massimo

I also like both shades, Massimo. I obviously don't know why they were manufactured lighter than the aqueous acrylics (besides that they're being produced in a different country by a different company), but I find no need to lighten them out of the bottle.

I'm looking forward to sampling the new versions of AMT-11 and -12, which should happen later this year. I will say that, as others have probably pointed out, one gets a much more accurate impression of the paint on a model than on a little plastic square.

Cheers,
Pip
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