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AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line
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Author Topic: AMT-1 in Akan's new acrylic lacquer line  (Read 26985 times)
KL
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« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2013, 05:36:37 PM »

Hi Xan,
Your AMT-12 is OK.  It should be dark - original gray colours of the Le Bourget Yak-3 are also dark. AMT-12 is very dark, almost black.

AMT-1 chip in Albom Nakrasok is somewhat darker and grayer than your AMT-1 (but you should count on distortions caused by your camera, my monitor etc.).

Overall your model looks very, very good!!!  Smiley
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2013, 07:42:37 AM »

Hi all,
I've found good photos of a new-built U-2 at http://propjet.ucoz.ru/forum/2-71-3. The paint is new, still semigloss (or semimatt if one prefers).
Here are two:


No doubt, a three shades camouflage.
Now, compare the plane of the photo with the NKAP templates of 1943:





The plane looks to respect well one of the templates (the other one than the model of Xan), but the darker color seems to be green, not grey.

Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2013, 08:59:32 AM »

Hi KL,

does, please, color on images in my yesterday post http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1585.msg12327#msg12327 represent yellow-brown primer ALG-1 or light brown A-21m? AMT-1 on these metal wings seems not to be a case.
Thank you.

    66misos


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bbrought
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« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2013, 10:02:11 AM »

Hi KL, I am also very interested in your ideas about that post from 66misos. The pictures he posted are from EP's discussion on the Albom Nakrasok. I was always very confused by that particular part of EP's argument (actually many other parts also). But there are two issues that stand out for me in this particular case:

1) He uses those pictures to prove that the sample of ALG-1 in the albom cannot possibly be correct and that it is too dark. However, all of those pictures seem to show external surfaces. I am trying to understand whether he is suggesting (a) that the original paint was worn off so evenly as to expose the entire surface of underlying ALG-1 or (b) that those surfaces were actually painted with ALG-1 as a final coat or (c) that these are actually internal surfaces showing the ALG-1 primer on surfaces not painted with a top coat.

2) In that last comment by EP: "The most corroded example of ALG-1 I have ever seen on an actual part (this found on an Il-2 wing which has sat uncovered in a forest for 70 years) which is starting to turn orange; it is still, however, less corroded than the 1948 booklet chip." I am trying to get my mind around how a part lying outside in the elements for 70 years can be less corroded than a paint chip preserved in a book kept in a temperature and humidity controlled building.

Anyway, my own stab at answering (1) is that what we are seeing in those pictures is actually A-21m and not ALG-1. Here is a picture of A-21m as given in the al'bom:

I don't know, but to me that chip looks like a fresh version of the "ALG-1" in EP's pictures, which makes it seem to me that he was wrong about it being ALG-1 but that it was rather A-21m that had faded slightly over the years. The fact that they look like external surfaces seem to support this, but maybe I'm missing something here.

Sorry, I don't want to turn it into another EP bashing, but I am truly confused by some of his arguments and this one in particular.
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BA Broughton
bbrought
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« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2013, 10:10:40 AM »

By the way, here is a link to EP's latest interpretation of VVS colours:
http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/il2guide/colour-samples.htm

As you can see, his version of A-21m is such a dark grey, that it would explain why he would never consider the possibility that the colour shown in those photographs could, in fact, be A-21m and not ALG-1. Once again, I am trying to figure out how he could interpret a colour called "light brown" as being a medium to dark grey with no brown in it at all.
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BA Broughton
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2013, 12:18:50 PM »

Hi all,
Quote
So does color on these images represent yellow-brown primer ALG-1 (IMHO here too bright) or light brown A-21m? AMT-1 on these metal wings seems not to be a case.
Am I wrong, or the light greyish shades are a remain of the light blue of the undersurfaces? I don't see doubts that this yellowish color is due to the primer.
In my idea, it's impossible to rely on photos to show so subtle difference of shades between the wrecks and the chip. The information given by a color photo is forthemost useful to compare colors inside the same photo. We have not even a good vision of the background to estimate the light and color balance of these photos, so we can't really say if the shades of ALG-1 are different or identical.

I don't think that this color is A-21, anyway. We see something of the vegetation on the background, and it appears very dark. I don't think that any flash was utilized, so the light should be similar to that of the wreck. If you lighten the image to give a proper color to the leaves, the shade of the piece is as light as the other ones.





Are there other photos known of this wreck?

Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 12:22:19 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2013, 12:47:50 PM »

Hi,
Quote
Once again, I am trying to figure out how he could interpret a colour called "light brown" as being a medium to dark grey with no brown in it at all.
this is true, and one could also ask how he could have considered his AII green as a camouflaging color.  I think that we should forget this table.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2013, 01:06:17 PM »

Hi,
but EP himself put a disclaimer to his latest interpretation of VVS colours at http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/il2guide/colour-samples.htm:
"...it is intended for representative purposes ONLY. It is not currently possible to guarantee the exact colour or shade of anything drawn on a computer monitor. These samples are to be regarded only as a general familiarization, particularly for those new to the subject, and should not be accepted 'as such' with the value shown on your screen."
So do not take his colors too seriously especially those "not new to the subject". Wink

Compare this chip including photo of Akan paint:


with A-21m "chip" directly from AKAN page:

and

Of course, different Akan product number, but they both, three show the same color - A-21m. Not a big difference.

Here is a chip of ALG-1 from Albom Nakrasok posted by KL at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg12015#msg12015:


It could match this quite well:


Here I would like to repeat EPs words from above - it is not currently possible to guarantee the exact colour or shade of anything drawn on a computer monitor and should not be accepted 'as such' with the value shown on your screen. IMHO, this disclaimer should start every discussion, or at least disputes about colors.

Regards,
    66misos
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 01:35:37 PM by 66misos » Logged

bbrought
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« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2013, 02:07:37 PM »

Am I wrong, or the light greyish shades are a remain of the light blue of the undersurfaces?

You could definitely be right. I think this is the huge difficulty in looking at such a limited resolution picture. You can't see for sure what is on top and what is underneath. You see, what I saw in that picture was this:
1) Light grey - oxidised aluminium skin, which typically ends up in all sorts of variations of grey.
2) Dark spots of darkish grey-green primer (top left is best example, but all the borders between light grey and light-brown colour seem to show this dark colour). I thought this was perhaps ALG-5? Apparently, ALG-5 would normally be used with A-21m.
3) A-21m on top.

However, your interpretation is also possible, so I won't try to argue it. I am still surprised that you can end up with such beautifully revealed primer over almost the entire outer skin, with almost nothing left of the top coat. Then again, if that light grey is indeed the top coat, I guess it would make sense. To me it looked like oxidised aluminium, rather than the paint, but as I said what you describe certainly sounds feasible.

I obviously agree 100% with the rest of what you write, namely that you can't rely on photos to reveal subtle differences in colour. I also still feel that if this is indeed ALG-1, then it doesn't prove the albom wrong, as EP suggests. In fact, the darker chip compared to the lighter older, exposed paint on the wreck, would make perfect sense.

Table below mentions use of ALG-5 with A-21m:




« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 02:13:10 PM by bbrought » Logged

BA Broughton
bbrought
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« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2013, 02:24:16 PM »

but EP himself put a disclaimer to his latest interpretation of VVS colours at http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/il2guide/colour-samples.htm:
"...it is intended for representative purposes ONLY. It is not currently possible to guarantee the exact colour or shade of anything drawn on a computer monitor. These samples are to be regarded only as a general familiarization, particularly for those new to the subject, and should not be accepted 'as such' with the value shown on your screen."
So do not take his colors too seriously especially those "not new to the subject". Wink

Sure, I've seen his disclaimer, but there is a point where you feel that if those colours look right on his monitor, he probably needs to invest in a new computer Smiley
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BA Broughton
bbrought
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« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2013, 02:48:30 PM »

Am I wrong, or the light greyish shades are a remain of the light blue of the undersurfaces? I don't see doubts that this yellowish color is due to the primer.

and

Quote
Are there other photos known of this wreck?

Massimo, is this not the same aircraft? From your own site on the discussion of bomber colour evolution:




That looks like upper surfaces to me?
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 02:50:49 PM by bbrought » Logged

BA Broughton
66misos
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« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2013, 03:12:33 PM »

Hi bbrought,

...there is a point where you feel that if those colours look right on his monitor, he probably needs to invest in a new computer Smiley
Fully agree  Cheesy

       66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2013, 03:33:10 PM »

Hi,
you're very right, it's the same and it's the uppersurface. Now we can see the light on this wing and background, too. Unfortunately, there are not further informations after the discussions already done. If I remember well, it had a layer of red brown primer on the undersurface.
Regards
Massimo
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bbrought
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« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2013, 03:36:11 PM »

Hi,
you're very right, it's the same and it's the uppersurface. Now we can see the light on this wing and background, too. Unfortunately, there are not further informations after the discussions already done. If I remember well, it had a layer of red brown primer on the undersurface.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo, based on this information, do you also think it MIGHT be A-21m, or you still think it is just primer?
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BA Broughton
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2013, 05:36:15 PM »

Hi bbrought. I think it is brown, but I don't know if the perception of its look was altered by the underlying paint (red brown?). We're at the same point of the thread on Britmodeller.  I would understand better if there was a layer of green, or red brown or what else under this brown. If I remember well, there was an apparently credible chip on a small hatch that seemed not too terribly different from the A-21 of Akan.
Regards
Massimo
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