Sovietwarplanes
September 23, 2019, 08:55:42 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This forum replaces the old sovietwarplanes.com whose domain has expired in January 2017. It has been updated with the posts of the year 2016.
The new location of the site 'Sovietwarplanes pages' is at http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 [3]
  Print  
Author Topic: B-25G Mitchell post-war  (Read 20413 times)
KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2013, 07:59:37 PM »

Hi Piotr,
It's one and the same text by V. Kotelnikov that was published in "Amerikantsi v Rosii", in Aviakollektsiya magazine and in Model Aircraft Monthly magazine.

Some of the info in Kotelnikov's text is questionable.  For example, 15 orap KBF received 2 B-25s in mid 1944 - one cannon armed B-25G and one unarmed B-25J that was used as a transport.  B-25G was sent to the North shortly after it's arrival (from a book about VMF aviation units).  Another questionable point:  "Shchuka" didn't exist in 1947, it's design started in 1948...
Logged
Piotr Mikolajski
Newbie
*
Posts: 29


« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2013, 12:45:58 AM »

Text in book and quoted here text from "Aviakollektsiya" are slightly different in details but it's good to know that nothing new was there.

It's really bad that all available info about B-25Gs are from Kotelnikov and that these informations seems to be not quite correct. I really really would like to build B-25G in Baltic Fleet camouflage, especially the one flying over East Prussia. But even B-25G rebuild for staff or transport duties would be nice. Now I have to build another variant or build kind of fantasy plane.
Logged
KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2013, 02:29:07 AM »

It's really bad that all available info about B-25Gs are from Kotelnikov and that these informations seems to be not quite correct. I really really would like to build B-25G in Baltic Fleet camouflage, especially the one flying over East Prussia. But even B-25G rebuild for staff or transport duties would be nice. Now I have to build another variant or build kind of fantasy plane.

Kotelnikov is one of the more reliable authors, most of the text is probably correct...
How about "what if" plane:  If B-25G participated in "Shchuka" project in 1947-48, it probably carried German Hs-293 missiles - this would make an interesting model!

Google РАМТ-1400 ?Щука?, to learn more about the project.
Logged
Piotr Mikolajski
Newbie
*
Posts: 29


« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2013, 02:06:42 PM »

Seems to be good alternative and sounds interesting. Уголок неба site shows following drawings of РАМТ-1400 "Щука-Б" and I think I can try to build this one. I guess that for this role turret was removed as well as gun.



BTW, I find it quite interesting that all sources mention Tu-2D and Il-28 only as mother ships, no mention about B-25Gs. It seems this article (in Russian) provides most details and I'm not sure about use of B-25s in "Щука". Maybe you are right and maybe B-25Gs were used in the trials of different weapon? Or maybe even in Hs 293 or Hs 294 tests in Crimea?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 04:52:21 PM by Piotr Mikolajski » Logged
KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2013, 07:26:36 PM »

Hi Piotr,
first air launch of the Shchuka misile happened on June 16 1949 from Tu-2T.  You may read about this at  http://www.e-reading-lib.org/djvureader.php/140232/27/Shirokorad_-_Ognenyii_Mech_Rosiiiskogo_Flota.html

Another text about Shchuka and its development is available here:  http://avia.mirtesen.ru/blog/43749186444/Letyat-%22SCHuki%22...

About Hs-293 and its 1948 tests by the Ministry of Agricultural Mashinery:

Как ни странно, освоение Hs-293A в Советском Союзе в 1947 году было поручено Министерству сельскохозяйственного машиностроения. Дело не в названии ведомства - в начале 1946 года в ходе преобразования государственного управления в Наркомате, а затем в Министерстве сельскохозяйственного машиностроения были сосредоточены практически все предприятия бывшего Наркомата боеприпасов. Однако, в соответствии с основополагающим для отечественного ракетостроения Постановлением Совета Министров СССР от 13 мая 1946 года № 1017-419, головным министерством по реактивным самолетам-снарядам был определен Минавиапром, а Минсельхозмашу поручили разработку и производство реактивных снарядов с пороховыми двигателями.

Однако Hs-293 в 1947 году попал-таки в Минсельхозмаш - видимо как боеприпас - "планирующая бомба" или "реактивная торпеда" и был передан для изучения в расположенное в Москве КБ-2 этого министерства, организованное в соответствии с упомянутым Постановлением на базе филиала № 2 НИИ-1 Минавиапрома (бывшего РНИИ) и занятое, в основном, работами по небольшим пороховым реактивным снарядам.

В 1948 при участии специалистов КБ-2 были проведены летные испытания Hs-293. В качестве носителя был дооборудован самолет Ту-2Д, Для подготовки экипажа носителя в качестве имитаторов Hs-293 использовались два Ла-11. Кроме того, к испытаниям привлекались два Ту-2 с фотоаппаратурой и два По-2 для поиска упавших ракет.

Пуски собранных в КБ-2 Hs-293A проводились как с системой наведения "Kehl-Strassburg", так и с отечественной радиокомандной системой "Печора", а также в нештатном исполнении - с автономной системой управления. Из 24 запущенных ракет с радиокомандными системами наведения в цель попало только 3. По результатам испытаний воспроизведение в серии ненадежного и уже явно устаревшего Hs-293 было признано нецелесообразным, хотя ранее и прорабатывалась возможность его запуска в производство на авиационном заводе № 272 в Ленинграде.


My guess is that by 1949, B-25s were too old and woren out for Shchuka tests.  1947 tests at Evpatoriya were probably Hs-293 tests performed by the Navy.
Logged
KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2013, 07:45:02 PM »

Better photo showing Nakoryakov

Logged
Piotr Mikolajski
Newbie
*
Posts: 29


« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2013, 08:51:09 PM »

First air launch of the Shchuka misile happened on June 16 1949 from Tu-2T.  You may read about this at  http://www.e-reading-lib.org/djvureader.php/140232/27/Shirokorad_-_Ognenyii_Mech_Rosiiiskogo_Flota.html
Unfortunately I've got "Sorry, the page you are looking for is currently unavailable. Please try again later." information. I'll try later Wink

Another text about Shchuka and its development is available here:  http://avia.mirtesen.ru/blog/43749186444/Letyat-%22SCHuki%22...
I've linked this article in comment above Cheesy

My guess is that by 1949, B-25s were too old and woren out for Shchuka tests.  1947 tests at Evpatoriya were probably Hs-293 tests performed by the Navy.
It seems you are right. B-25s could be used in tests in 1947 but not in 1949 and later.

Better photo showing Nakoryakov
This photo was always described as "transport variant of B-25G" but I'm quite sure all three photos of Nakoryakov's B-25G posted in this thread were made during the same photo session.

I think that this aircraft had removed gun (but gun port in nose is still visible) and probably had removed turret too. I'm not sure if it was transport aircraft during 1947 trials of Hs 293 / Hs 294 or maybe if this was launch pad of these missiles. There are no visible modifications to carry Hs 293 under fuselage but this is not proof for anything - I can imagine that aircraft could carry missile in bomb bay with doors open and could close it after launch. But more important - B-25J had kind of ventral shackles able to hold one external Mark 13 air-dropped torpedo.

BTW, I've found one more thing and I think I know why Kotelnikov writes about "Щука". Just look on these images:

This photo is described as "Original German WWII designer's model of the Henschel Hs 294 Torpedo Bomb":



This is drawing of initial variant of "Щука":



Few more photos are available at http://www.luftarchiv.de/index.htm?/flugkorper/hs293_294_295.htm website and in my opinion this is slightly modified Henschel Hs 294. So building modified B-25G with Henschel Hs 294 is not so strange or stupid idea Wink
Logged
barneybolac
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 320


« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2013, 07:26:27 AM »

Better photo showing Nakoryakov



Interesting picture the twin 50 cals are gone as is the cannon port that would have been mounted on our right of the photo or the aircrafts left side. I did notice something unusual though there seems to be what looks like a portal of some kind with a round apparatus mounted in the low center of the nose that is not typical of any B-25G I have ever seen before. Did they mount the cannon other than the left side on the aircraft at some point of the B25G model?
I never heard of that before & it would be very unique if so.




A typical B25G cannon portal.




 







Or is it something else the Russians may have modified on that aircraft?
Logged
barneybolac
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 320


« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2013, 07:36:33 AM »

Better photo showing Nakoryakov

I think that this aircraft had removed gun (but gun port in nose is still visible)


It would be very interesting if that is the cannon port in that location.
Or did the Russians modify the outer skin for something else?
Logged
Piotr Mikolajski
Newbie
*
Posts: 29


« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2013, 08:13:55 PM »

It would be very interesting if that is the cannon port in that location.
I would say this is original gun port in the nose but without better quality photo or other photos it's impossible to tell anything more. It can be gun, it can be hole (IMO not much sense honestly, too much drag), it can be kind of probe, camera or anything else useful during tests. Last but not least it can be hole patched with metal plate painted with darker paint.

Or did the Russians modify the outer skin for something else?
IIRC additional windows were added in transport variants but not in this area.
Logged
KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2013, 09:40:29 PM »

I did a bit more Internet search on Hs-293 and "Shchuka" projects.  Not much available, but it's interesting:

In 1947 a group of 30 interned German specialsts was organized as a design bureau KB-2, formally under the Ministry of Agricultural Machinery Production.  Bureau was lead by D.L. Tomashevich, designer of I-110, also imprizoned at that time.  Bureau's main task was to prepare Hs-293 for series production planned at a Factory in Leningrad.

By 1948, 24 Hs-293 were ready for tests with various types of remote control (German and Soviet).  Tests were done with Tu-2D, pilot was captain V.V. Zentsov.  From 24 Hs-293 launched, only 3 hit the target.  It was then decided, in April 1948, to design a new misile.  This new misile was named Shchuka.

Modifications of Tu-2 for "Shchuka" project were made at OKB-30 headed by A.P. Golubkov in 1948.

Большинство доработок Ту-2 выполнили в ОКБ-30 под руководством А.П. Голубкова. В 1948 году начали дорабатывать один из Ту-2Д для подвески реактивной торпеды (крылатой противокорабельной ракеты) "Хеншель" 293-А. Для тренировки экипажей самолетов-торпедоносцев "Хеншеля" оборудовали два истребителя Ла-11. Ту-2 использовался также для исследований макета крылатой ракеты "Шторм" М.Р. Бисновата и реактивной крылатой торпеды "Щука". На морском полигоне около Феодосии с Ту-2 сделали 15 пусков с высот от 2000 до 5000 метров на дистанциях от 12 до 30 км. Дальнейшие испытания и доводка "Щуки" проходили на самолете Ил-28, но на вооружение ее так и не приняли.

Hs-293 at http://www.rulit.net/books/aviaciya-i-kosmonavtika-2007-02-read-233266-8.html

Tomashevich's biography at  http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-666.html and http://www.xliby.ru/transport_i_aviacija/samolety_mira_2001_02/p2.php

Tu-2 flying labs http://pro-samolet.ru/samolety-sssr-ww2/bomberdir/81-bombardir-tu-2?start=6
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 09:44:31 PM by KL » Logged
Piotr Mikolajski
Newbie
*
Posts: 29


« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2013, 06:28:57 PM »

It seems that B-25s could not be involved in Hs 293 tests. Kotelnikov connects B-25Gs in some kind of bombs / missiles tests. It means that Kotelnikov is wrong and B-25s were not involved in such trials or... Kotelnikov is right and B-25s were used for tests but with another weapon.

I tried to find some more info about Hs 294 trials in Soviet Union but information are almost non-existing.
Logged
KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2013, 07:03:48 PM »

It seems that B-25s could not be involved in Hs 293 tests. Kotelnikov connects B-25Gs in some kind of bombs / missiles tests. It means that Kotelnikov is wrong and B-25s were not involved in such trials or...

Or the other way around...  Smiley
1.  Since Kotelnikov is a "relatively" reliable source, it seems that B-25Gs were involved in some radio controlled missile tests in 1947-48.

2.  1947-48 tests were not related to the activities of KB-2 design bureau and later "Shchuka" Project.

3.  Soviets were extremely interested in Hs-293 - some were captured, some assembled from captured parts, series production was planned.  Hs-293 was extensively tested, various methods of control were considered.  Eventually,initial Shchuka was a development of Hs-293/294.

Again, if B-25G was involved in radio controlled missile tests in 1947-48, the missile was clearly Hs-293.  There was nothing else available.  Smiley
Logged
Piotr Mikolajski
Newbie
*
Posts: 29


« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2013, 08:20:25 PM »

There were Hs 294s in Soviet Union Smiley

Information about captured Hs 293s and Hs 294s can be found in "Огненный меч Российского флота". Rostislav Angelskiy in "Esli bu Ne Korolev" article wrote:

Quote
На завод №70 в Москву также прибыли "Фау?2", "Рейнтохтер" и, кроме того, крылатые ракеты Хеншель HS?293А и HS?294, управляемые бомбы "Фриц-X", противотанковые гранатометы "Панцерштрек".

Plant №70 in Moscow received V-2, "Rheintochter" and, additionally, guided missiles Henschel Hs 293A and Hs 294, guided bombs "Fritz-X", "Panzerschreck" anti-tank grenade launcher.

(Angelskiy, R. A., Esli bu Ne Korolev, Aviatsiya i Kosmonavtika, 4.98, p. 22)

Unfortunately I have no info how many of 125-165 manufactured before May 1945 were captured and delivered to Soviet Union. But idea of Hs 294, rocket torpedo weapon, different from guided bomb Hs 293, was developed in "Shchuka" Project. These missiles have to be tested but there are no info at all. Why?
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!