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Author Topic: Spitfire IX 26 GvIAP, any photos of bort numbers?  (Read 10331 times)
Troy Smith
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« on: October 13, 2013, 06:18:28 PM »

Hi

now this scheme is widely known, from profiles and the ICM kit

eg bort 78



and the ICM kit

Quote
Squadron Leader of the 27'" GIAPPVO Guard Captain A Karpov

and this famous photo in Red Stars 1



There are others, but  I have never seen a clear photo showing a Spitfire IX with a white tail and bort number showing.

Are there any not published in the west? Or are the profiles 'best guess' from known information?

cheers
Troy



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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2013, 06:43:03 PM »

The same photo is on Red stars 4.
I guess that the tail is not white on this photo, perhaps silver.
Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2013, 09:57:53 PM »

Hi,
I've received informations and scans from Ilya Grinberg.

The white tail is justified, even if it is chipping on this image.
Note the number; it has a thin outline of unidentified color.
Quote
The profiles you mentioned are completely justified.
It is interesting to notice that bort numbers on these Spitfires correspond to the last two digits of the RAF numbers and I have RAF numbers of all the Spitfires received by the 26th GIAP. Moreover, there is a beautiful photograph with more details of the markings, such as location of the Guards emblem, white tail (although the paint is peeling:)) and unfortunately only one digit of the number.
I hope to know some more details from him.
Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 07:27:04 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
Troy Smith
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« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2013, 12:27:47 AM »

That is brilliant Massimo, and thanks to Ilya.

It's a very appealing scheme, and now confirmation.

A list of serial numbers would be great as well.  I look forward to finding out more.   

note, for those Spitfire enthusiasts out there this site
http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/production.html

has a list of every Spitfire built, that's 115 pages.   
The descriptions are often very breif, just the serial, engine fitted, where built and when first flown, but may be of help if you are unaware of this resource.


Does Ilya know anything about post war Spitfire use, and are there any clear photos of repainted planes?  I know there are some in Red Stars 4 but they are very small and hard to make out any real detail.

cheers
Troy
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2013, 01:47:49 PM »

Hi,
I've asked for details to Ilya, I'll keep you informed.
I remember to have read an interview with a Soviet Spitfire pilot, probably of this unit, somewhere, perhaps on airforce.ru. Oleg will certainly know it.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2013, 10:26:39 PM »

I guess that the tail is not white on this photo, perhaps silver.

White tails and spinners were a quick recognition sign for all VVS combat planes on Leningrad Front in 1944.
Hundreds of planes actually had white tails and spinners - there is no need to guess and interpret colour from a single photo...

Some examples:
103 giap P-39Q


101 giap P-39s


probably this Spitfire too?

regards,
KL
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learstang
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« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2013, 03:09:07 AM »

Konstantin, were all the Spitfires after the Kuban offensive assigned to PVO units, or did some continue in use with frontal units?  I presume all the Leningrad Spitfires were with the PVO (at least the Mk.IX's).

Regards,

Jason
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66misos
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« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2013, 08:56:30 AM »

Hi KL,
this was posted one day latter than quotation you relate on:
The white tail is justified, even if it is chipping on this image.
Note the number; it has a thin outline of unidentified color.

Anyhow, this spinner and tail look silver, not white:




regards,
     66misos
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 09:02:05 AM by 66misos » Logged

KL
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« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2013, 08:39:13 PM »

were all the Spitfires after the Kuban offensive assigned to PVO units, or did some continue in use with frontal units?  I presume all the Leningrad Spitfires were with the PVO (at least the Mk.IX's).

Yes, according to Kotelnikov's book and texts.  By VE-day, 26 out of 81 PVO regiments were equiped with Spitfires.  Spitfire had better high altitude performances than VVS fighters and heavy armament.  Its low level performances were inferior to standard VVS fighters.

this was posted one day latter than quotation you relate on:
The white tail is justified, even if it is chipping on this image.

If that was a black and white photo of a 1941 Junkers Ju-87B with its nose repainted in light colour, it would be automatically assumed that the light colour was yellow.  I don?t think that anybody would attempt to guess colour (white, light blue, etc.) relying on a single photo?

Regarding the P-39 in the Finnish museum ? if I remember correctly, spinner is silver and tail is white.  But, as you know, the plane was restored and not all the parts are original (propeller) and not all the paints are original (for example gray-green lines around stars).

Anyway, now you know what was the purpose of white spinners and tails ? those were not personal markings nor regimental markings.  Comments on shade of white or other details are really a nit-picking.

Regards,
KL

 
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2013, 10:35:12 PM »

Hi Misos,

Quote
this was posted one day latter than quotation you relate on
Very right
Quote
Anyhow, this spinner and tail look silver, not white:
Again, very right.

Now, here is a detail of the photo of P-39s:

Seems that many of the planes shown as examples of white spinners, tails etc were not so white. One could also note that they aren't Spitfires and aren't of the 26th GvIAP.
We see both white numbers and darker numbers, white spinners and darker spinners. What color could it be?
Seems that white and aluminium were utilized indifferently in some units. This could be the case of the plane in the Finnish museum.

Regards
Massimo

« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 06:29:13 AM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2013, 11:53:45 AM »

Hi,

here http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1363.msg10231#msg10231 I found:

...number "12" was probably silver. On most photos it looks white and only in the photo above (in spec lighting conditions) brush strokes are visible.  It's the same with the number "26" on Hyryl? Museum P-39Q - number is hand painted with silver paint. The (silver) paint itself is very reflective and very, very fine grained - it's actually very hard to get its metallic lustre on photos.  Usually it looks white on photos. Some paint manufacturers call such paints "Metallic White"...
Silver nose and vertical tail were standard for Leningrad military district in 1944.

Quotation from http://www.oocities.org/capecanaveral/4676/reference/russian.htm
RUSSIAN WW2 SILVER & OTHER COLOURS, Taken from rec.models.scale newsgroup - author Kari Lumppio:
There is a war-time handbook for chemical industry making paints for  VVS. It contains also color samples for the paints... This book gives only three colors for exterior markings for VVS: white, red and aluminium (silver)...
Silver borders for VVS stars is a stonehard fact. You can even access the  evidence in Internet. Photos of two very different cases of P-39 Russian  Airacobras with such stars can be found...
So it's altogether three different Russian P-39's with silver-bordered stars. Drawing conclusions from only one example could be dangerous.


Well, I do not think that "guessing" silver instead of white color in specific cases for front/unit marking, inscriptions etc. in VVS is such nonsense.
  
    66misos
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 03:04:03 PM by 66misos » Logged

Troy Smith
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« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2013, 08:51:23 PM »


probably this Spitfire too?

regards,
KL


Hi Konstantin
I've seen this Spitfire discussed somewhere, quite possibly here, I can't find the bit right now, but this was a test aircraft for canopy hood jettison trails IIRC.   Look at the canopy area.
I'd suggest this plane had a red spinner and rudder.  

The photo first appeared in Red Stars 4 I think, that was the first place I saw it.

[EDIT]
I knew I had seen this image elsewhere, here - http://www.thescale.info/news/publish/printer_russian-spitfires.shtml
Quote

This early Spitfire LF Mk IX, MJ858, was used for testing various modified canopies. In this photo, the canopy seems to be hinged upwards on the top forward edge of the windscreen, probably for bale-out. The actual purpose or technical details of this modification are obscure.Standard owym RAF scheme less quick recognition markings. Rudder and spinner in a bright colour, probably yellow, orange or red. (via W. Matusiak)

The image is clearer here.

there are  more photos on the page,  but nothing not already in the Red Stars books.

Two I think are of note

This for the 'lightning bolt' emblem, in Red Stars 4 there is a pic of a plane like this in the background.  


This is of interest as it appears to have a uniform upper surface colour, if so then repainted in Soviet colours, post GPW?  


There is a profile in Red Stars 4 [but no photo] of a "Spitfire IXE, 'blue 2', Lt Col. V.A. Matsiyevich, 26 GIAP, Leningrad spring 1945" in overall gree upper surface and with a white lightning bolt.


from http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/38430-148-icm-spitfire-lfixe/
I'd forgotten ICM did a boxing of this
Is there any photo evidence for this profile scheme?
I know Xan did a build, mentioned on here, and here http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=72757&start=25#p829012
with this from the Osprey book


With this blown up pic




The photo Massimo posted has an interesting feature, worth commenting
Note the very far back position of the fuselage star compared to other VVS Spitfires.   As the stars seem ot have been appiled by the  British pre delivery this possibly was repainted in VVS service?



Any more info from Ilya as yet?

cheers
T

« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 02:49:12 AM by Troy Smith » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2013, 07:19:43 AM »

Hi,
Quote
The photo Massimo posted has an interesting feature, worth commenting
Note the very far back position of the fuselage star compared to other VVS Spitfires.   As the stars seem ot have been appiled by the  British pre delivery this possibly was repainted in VVS service?
The drawings of 78 and 32 have the same characteristic, it could be typical of the unit. I suppose that the red stars were painted by Soviet crews. The rear part of the fuselage seems repainted in all planes, saving the code.
Another thing on P-39s, the last one here I hope:
The photo shown to bear an example of generalised white tails shows one tail only.

One could compare the tail to the spinner of the other plane.
If you look carefully, you can also see the outline of the star made with a lighter color. Lighter than white?


Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2013, 10:18:49 AM »

Hi,

here is well known plane from 159 IAP. Star outline on the tail seems to be brighter then the rudder - looks like red white-outlined star over silver background:


Another plane from 159 IAP. Again, same as previous, star outline on the tail seems to be brighter then the rudder - original red white-outlined star partially overpainted with something darker (silver?) than white:


Yesterday I browsed in MBI publication about La-5. There is text about camo & painting by Milos Vetsik. There is one b&w photo and two color profiles of 159 IAP planes with description - silver nose and silver rudder...

     66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2013, 01:18:15 PM »

Hi Misos,
I am not sure, but the La.5 n.26 looks to have preserved the thin red outline, while the white part was repainted silver. An higher resolution scan could help.
Regards
Massimo
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