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Author Topic: Spitfire IX 26 GvIAP, any photos of bort numbers?  (Read 10340 times)
66misos
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« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2013, 02:38:17 PM »

Hi Massimo,
let come back to those 26 IAP Spitfires. It is important that there are photos of different planes and info supporting (also) silver propeller spinner & rudder/tail on planes in Leningrad area.

I wonder if there is publicly available copy of some original VVS document/order clearly saying that tails and spinners had to be painted:
1. strictly white, or
2. strictly silver, or
3. either silver or white (according to the local paint stock? Wink)
as a quick recognition sign for all VVS combat planes on Leningrad Front in 1944.

I would not say that P-39 (no. 26 from Finland) tail on the b&w photo bellow is silver. Probably dirty white in shadow, or yellow Huh:


    66misos
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 03:00:10 PM by 66misos » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2013, 06:19:14 AM »

Hi Misos,
you write Airacobra n.26... do you mean the one in the museum? I've asked Jan Vihonen for more informations.
If you mean the La-5: observing the star, I don't think that the rudder is angulated.
About the P-39 photographed near the flag: to tell the truth, I can't put my hand on the fire about the fact that the tail is silver, but by sure it's not a proof of white. Maybe it could be a less thick layer of white paint than the outline, who knows... Silver and white are easy to be distinguished on a curved surface, but this is a nearly flat one.
A written document would be very interesting, if it can be found.
Just another consideration: if an order 'forbids' something, this could mean that it was widely done before.
Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 07:17:10 AM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
KL
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« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2013, 11:38:42 PM »

Hi,

here http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1363.msg10231#msg10231 I found:

...number "12" was probably silver. On most photos it looks white and only in the photo above (in spec lighting conditions) brush strokes are visible.  It's the same with the number "26" on Hyryl? Museum P-39Q - number is hand painted with silver paint. The (silver) paint itself is very reflective and very, very fine grained - it's actually very hard to get its metallic lustre on photos.  Usually it looks white on photos. Some paint manufacturers call such paints "Metallic White"...
Silver nose and vertical tail were standard for Leningrad military district in 1944.

Well, I do not think that "guessing" silver instead of white color in specific cases for front/unit marking, inscriptions etc. in VVS is such nonsense.

Well, if I said silver - it was silver.  Thanks for the link/reminder...

BTW, I didn't use word "nonsense".
Regards,
KL
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66misos
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« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2013, 09:27:51 PM »

Hi KL,
sorry. There is nothing personal. I just simply do not thing that "guessing" silver instead of white color in specific cases for front/unit marking, inscriptions etc. in VVS is such nonsense (generally, not only in this case). Next time I will try to be more precise.

Massimo,
this is scan from MBI publication Lavochkin La-5:

Note another plane behind no. 36 in different position against sun - rudder, star outline and main landing gear cover are brighter than on no. 36.

Another scan  from MBI LA-5, profile:

of this plane:


Regards,
     66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2013, 10:43:34 PM »

Hi Misos,
the comparison of 36 with the plane on the background confirms that it is more exposed to direct sun. The photo leaves many doubts, the 'silver' spinner looks an illusion due to an effect of the frontal lightening of the plane, and so the 'silver' rudder and numbers could be the effect of a reduced light. On the other side, we can't say that the fuselage is in shadow.
I wonder if there are other photos of the planes of the 159 IAP for a comparison.
About plane 26, I am convinced that the rudder is not white nor angulated. The grey camouflage finish is interesting for this type.
Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: October 21, 2013, 07:41:11 AM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2013, 01:03:05 PM »

Hi,
I've received some informations on the P-39 in Finnish museum  from Jan Vihonen:

Quote
Sorry for the delay but I have finally got the information from Harri Huopainen, my friend who's working as an aircraft conservator at the Central Finland Aviation Museum. This is what he told me:

He has checked the files in the museum and also contacted his  predecessor. The fin is from Norway and came to Finland already conserved and primed. Aluminium colour is based both on the research done by the then director of the Museum, Dr. Hannu Valtonen, and remains of the aluminium colour in the original fin fairing. It remains uncertain, though, whether the fin fairing is originally from the tactical number (aluminium) 26.

After the war there were remains of at least three Airacobras stored in  Finland, but at some time most of them were scrapped and only the main components for one a/c were kept, along with a pile of smaller, unsorted parts. The pieces in worse condition were destroyed and the ones in better shape were kept, which means in this case that the wings and the fuselage are from different aircraft altogether.

Colouration was studied at the time, but, as usual, no certainties were established. In the old Red Stars vol. I there is a photo of Airacobra 24, apparently from the same unit, which has only the rudder painted in aluminium.

So there, I hope this was of help to you. If you're citing this anywhere, the info is to be credited to the Central Finland Aviation Museum (and if you want to be more specific, to Harri). I'm only acting as a messenger here.  Smiley

Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


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« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2013, 07:46:02 PM »

Hi Massimo,
thank for info. So at least those Cobras have comfirmed silver tail or rudder.
Back to that Spitfire:

Red arrows pointing at little areas brighter than white (or silver?) surrounding. It looks like something was painted on the tail using also white color and finally overpainted by overall white or silver(?) tail.
I speculated a bit - that damaged white/silver color also reminds me painting... I draw there thin black lines to make it more clear Roll Eyes

Regards,
   66misos
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