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Author Topic: Page of profiles of R-5 and R-Z of Tapani  (Read 20695 times)
KL
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« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2013, 08:17:47 AM »

Again correction....  Sad
Armada page 44 photo is a similar, not the same plane...
it's profile is drawn here:

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bbrought
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« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2013, 09:14:37 AM »

R-5 No 5215 was used in expeiments which were supposed to improve R-5's stall recovery charackteristics (Russian "shtopor" is translated as "stall").  This plane had movable rear wing struts - movable struts were supposed to function as rudder during stall recovery.

Are you sure about that? I am not a native Russian speaker, but since I work as an aeronautical engineer with Russian as my third language I am often asked to translate for my colleagues. I always translated штопор (shtopor) as "spin" and "срывь" (sriv) as a "stall". Going through some test reports that I have from TsAGI they also seem to consistently refer to it this way.

In the text quoted by Massimo, they also seem to use the word штопор for "spin". If I translated that part of the text, it would be something like this (which seems to also imply the aircraft was spinning):

"On 9 May 1933, R-5 No. 5215 suffered an accident. The observer of the experiment, A.V. Tchesalov, jumped out with his parachute in the 17-18th turn of the spin. Pilot M.A. Volkovoinov, hoping to recover the aircraft, abandoned it too close to the ground. His parachute did not have time to inflate and Volkovoinov perished."
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BA Broughton
KL
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« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2013, 05:34:44 PM »

R-5 No 5215 was used in expeiments which were supposed to improve R-5's stall recovery charackteristics (Russian "shtopor" is translated as "stall").  This plane had movable rear wing struts - movable struts were supposed to function as rudder during stall recovery.

Are you sure about that? I am not a native Russian speaker, but since I work as an aeronautical engineer with Russian as my third language I am often asked to translate for my colleagues. I always translated штопор (shtopor) as "spin" and "срывь" (sriv) as a "stall".

You are right, it looks I have mixed up some aeronautical terms;  it's spin caused by stall...
Thanks for the correction.
KL
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 05:41:53 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2013, 05:55:01 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
Quote
Again correction....  Sad
Armada page 44 photo is a similar, not the same plane...
it's profile is drawn here:
Thank you, maybe could be good for another profile.
Is it written how many of these were converted?
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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Posts: 1678


« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2013, 10:23:42 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
Quote
Again correction....  Sad
Armada page 44 photo is a similar, not the same plane...
it's profile is drawn here:
Thank you, maybe could be good for another profile.
Is it written how many of these were converted?

in Aviakollektsiya R-5 issue, same photo (page 83) is commented as: "One of the numerous wartime modifications - liason limuzin"
nothing more...

IMHO, I guess, two planes were probably modified at the same depot:  cockpits are similar, both are silver.  1941-42 fits in general trend when many trainers, civilian, damaged etc. planes were overhauled.  From photographic record we know that some of these overhauled planes were silver.  Wink
HTH,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2013, 09:38:14 PM »

Looks likely. I think that they were used far from the front.
Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2013, 10:12:54 AM »

Hi, two new ones from Tapani


http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/pr-5/PR-5grey.htm


http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/r-5/tapani/camo20.htm

Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2013, 08:58:02 AM »

Hi Massimo,
a corrrection for your PR-5 profile:

PR-5 was made in significantly smaller numbers than your 1000 planes.  It should be "around 200" or "over 200".  Exact number is not known, probably because after the series production in 1936-37 (when newly made wings were used) some planes were made utilazing parts from old R-5s

Maslov has 200 planes made by Zavod 402 starting from 1936
Kotelnikov has 130 planes.  Supposedly old R-5 were modified to PR-5 by Zavod 241 till 1940
Sobolev has around 225 planes total.  Around 200 were made by Zavod 402 in 1936 and around 25 planes made by Zavod 241 in 1937

HTH,
KL 
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2013, 01:09:15 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
you are right, Andersson reports 220 PR-5 built in z.241 in 1936-39 and over forty P-5 converted to PR-5 in 1940 (probably the planes in the drawing you've posted, I wonder how their section of fuselage was made). I don't remember where I read the number of 1000, but probably included other variants. Thank you for the warning.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2013, 02:27:23 AM »

... Andersson reports 220 PR-5 built in z.241 in 1936-39 and over forty P-5 converted to PR-5 in 1940 (probably the planes in the drawing you've posted, I wonder how their section of fuselage was made). I don't remember where I read the number of 1000, but probably included other variants.

As far as I remember, 1000 is the total of R-5s that were in civil service (with Aeroflot, various ministries, aeroclubs etc.).  This number includes disarmed unmodified R-5  and R-5 modified in various ways.

Two liaison planes with enclosed cockpits were planes modified for military service during the war, probably in 1941-42.  Both planes have VVS red stars, ie military markings and no registration number.

HTH,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2013, 06:50:44 AM »

This is likely.
Best regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2013, 01:56:54 PM »

Hi,
we are looking details of the SSS, the rear turret in particular.

Note the wall-like object behind the shoulders of the gunner. Probably it is a curved ammo box. I wonder if its extension is symmetrical or not behind the gunner.
Has anyone any ideas or images on this?
Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 02:14:35 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
KL
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« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2013, 08:25:22 PM »

You guys are producing these drawings too fast...
I have quite a few comments/corrections for your previous drawings.  If interested and if you are willing to correct your drawings, I will post my comments...  Smiley

For example:



Quote
The plane was already old at the date of its capture, and shows extensive silver brush repaintings, particularly on the back of the fuselage and around the door, probably intended to protect the wood against exposure to elements.

Being a military plane, the most likely color for its background is AII light grey or similar paint.

This plane was more likely a civilian plane pressed into military service in summer 1941.  The plane was originally silver and had its civilian registration overpainted in gray...  It may have looked like this one:



HTH,
KL
 
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2013, 10:32:32 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
it is very possible that the plane was an old civilian plane remarked, but I don't think that silver was its original color.

In first place, because silver is overposed to the red star (this should be enough).
In second place, because silver is put in the places of major wearing: the upper surface exposed to the sun and around to the door. We don't see grey in the places where a civil mark was deleted, but all around the plane, also where there are not likely civilian marks.
In third place, PR-5 rarely appear silver on photos. Probably some were silver, but the most of them is in some light non metallic color. Geust writes that the prototype was light blue with dark blue nose and side stripes, so I suppose that the similar planes of Aeroflot were light blue too.
But if this plane came out of factory with such a livery, it was covered with a non metallic color (grey?) before marking it with red stars.


Of course, if you have comments or informations on other planes, I'm interested to read them.
Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 10:54:32 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
learstang
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WWW
« Reply #44 on: November 14, 2013, 01:28:19 AM »

Hi,
we are looking details of the SSS, the rear turret in particular.

Note the wall-like object behind the shoulders of the gunner. Probably it is a curved ammo box. I wonder if its extension is symmetrical or not behind the gunner.
Has anyone any ideas or images on this?
Regards
Massimo

Could it be armour or something to protect the gunner from the slipstream?

Regards,

Jason
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