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Author Topic: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints  (Read 13921 times)
Massimo Tessitori
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« on: November 16, 2013, 07:04:09 AM »

Hi,
I've received some interesting documents from Andrey Averin. They make some light on some controversal shades.
Here is a page from a manual that gives the limit shades of AMT-1

here is a scan of a page of chips referred from the manual.

Note the strong variability: so, both the greyish shade and the brownish one are acceptable matches (even if the greyest shade looks deteriorated)

Here another manual gives the limit shades of A-21m and A-28m

and here are the limit shades of A-21m

again, a strong variability including greenish shades
and A-28m

that are consistent with the blue shade of AMT-7 and A-28g, and not with the duck egg blue of the Nakrasok Alboom that is presumably altered or perhaps indicative of a stronger variability.
Regards
Massimo


« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 09:51:58 AM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
KL
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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2013, 09:42:56 AM »

Interesting. Very, very, interesting and useful...

It says that:  "Colour of the paint after drying should corespond to or should be located around the following numbers in the collection of colour etalons".

For AMT-1 this means 2 colours: light brown and yellowish gray.

Variations were allowed between colours to the left and to the right of the number 924 and to the left and to the right of the number 935.  Akanihin wrote about this at scalemodels.ru forum few years ago.    
« Last Edit: November 16, 2013, 10:11:23 AM by KL » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2013, 01:57:08 PM »

Hi KL,
do those two chips for each color represent:
1. two possibilities,
or
2. boudaries where (but not beyond) color should be?

Regards,
    66misos

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richard.kiss
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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2013, 03:17:58 PM »

Dear Massimo,

thanks for sharing this very interesting info.

I would like to know what kind of manual is it?
Two dates shown on first picture. When was this book printed?
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learstang
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« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2013, 05:52:19 PM »

Yes, Massimo, very interesting indeed!  Thank you for posting!  I wonder if this manual is available on the Internet for download.

Regards,

Jason
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KL
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« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2013, 12:56:57 AM »

Two dates shown on first picture. When was this book printed?

It looks that the book was printed in 1966 (or later) and that it refers to Technical Requirements issued in 1956.  In 1966 AMT colours were out of production for 15-20 years, but obviously the requirements were still valid.

do those two chips for each color represent:
1. two possibilities,
or
2. boundaries where (but not beyond) color should be?

Actually both:
Etalon 924 is "gryazno pesochnaya" (dirty sand) for 1941 experimental AMT-1
Etalon 935 is "svetlo korichnevaya" (light brown) for 1943 3-colour camouflage scheme utilized on Il-2s and bombers

Each colour was allowed to vary between the left and right chip.

HTH,
KL
« Last Edit: November 17, 2013, 01:03:38 AM by KL » Logged
KL
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« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2013, 01:22:46 AM »

Note the strong variability: so, both the greyish shade and the brownish one are acceptable matches (even if the greyest shade looks deteriorated)

Here another manual gives the limit shades of A-21m and A-28m
...
that are consistent with the blue shade of AMT-7 and A-28g, and not with the duck egg blue of the Nakrasok Alboom that is presumably altered or perhaps indicative of a stronger variability.

Thanks for posting this!  A mystery has been solved.

I would not dismiss "Albom Nakrasok", and I don's see any need to stress how chips are deteriorated or altered.  Because they are not deteriorated/altered.  Those chips were protected from UV light, from heat, moisture and other factors that could have caused deterioration.

Some of Albom Nakrasok chips are not perfect - simply, cardboard is not the best medium to spray oil paint - oil from some of those oil paint chips actually penetrated through the cardboard and stained paper pages.  Few other chips (AMT-4 for example) got glued to the protective vellum page.  IMHO, they are still extremely close to their original colour.  Anyway, they are not  deteriorated as EP writes.

You may say that some "Albom" chips are not representative...  Maybe whoever made A-28g chip didn't mix paint enough or didn't clean spraygun?

"Albom Nakrasok" AMT-1 chip is very close to the right, darker 924 chip.

Regards,
KL
 
« Last Edit: November 17, 2013, 05:30:12 AM by KL » Logged
learstang
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« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2013, 02:16:15 AM »

Looking at these chips, it still seems that a tan colour with some grey in it is a reasonable choice for AMT-1 or A-21m.  That's probably the colour I'll continue to use.  Still, there's a lot of variation for this "colour".

Regards,

Jason
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KL
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« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2013, 05:40:43 AM »

Looking at these chips, it still seems that a tan colour with some grey in it is a reasonable choice for AMT-1 or A-21m.  That's probably the colour I'll continue to use.  Still, there's a lot of variation for this "colour".

Light brown 935 makes a lot of sense for 3-colour scheme.  It is also similar to other colours called "light brown".
Real surprize is etalon 627.  Nothing in common with 935.  On my monitor it is green; it can't be called "light brown".  It looks as lighter version of 4BO or AMT-4.

Regards,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2013, 08:19:27 AM »

Hi all,
I'll ask for references of the scans that Andrey has sent at my next emailing.

The possibility of variations between the batches of paint, or due to the storage, to the mixing etc are well known to who utilizes Humbrol paints (and possibly of other firms too).
Many colors are indicated between two numbers with two chips each, that is between four chips.
It is also interesting to see that AMT-1 and A-21m have different specifications. I wonder if this is due to some difference in pigments or to a more yellowish medium for oil enamels.

About the calibration of the scanner or camera of who takes the images  and the monitor of who sees them: it would be good to buy some identical postcards with some identical photos, to include one in the scan and to send copies to who is interested to the shades: this would allow  him to compare the postcard appearing on the scan aside the chips to the real postcard he has, to detect errors of calibration. It would be much less expensive than to buy a FS catalogue for anyone.
Of course, this can function only if who takes the images is willing to do it again including the postcard in the shot.

Regards
Massimo
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learstang
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« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2013, 05:22:50 PM »

Looking at these chips, it still seems that a tan colour with some grey in it is a reasonable choice for AMT-1 or A-21m.  That's probably the colour I'll continue to use.  Still, there's a lot of variation for this "colour".

Light brown 935 makes a lot of sense for 3-colour scheme.  It is also similar to other colours called "light brown".
Real surprize is etalon 627.  Nothing in common with 935.  On my monitor it is green; it can't be called "light brown".  It looks as lighter version of 4BO or AMT-4.

Regards,
KL

Konstantin, it looks green on my monitor also.  It is a surprise.  Certainly Orlov doesn't mention this.

Regards,

Jason
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learstang
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« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2013, 05:48:35 PM »

Massimo, regarding A-21m, Orlov mentions that it had a yellowish varnish.

Regards,

Jason
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2013, 07:08:40 PM »

Hi,
Looking at Akan colors, it seems that it was AMT-1 to have a more greenish tint than A-21m.
Perhaps this is due to the fact that there are yellowish, blackish and reddish pigments; a small lack of the reddish one can move this borderline color into greens.
Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2013, 10:39:09 PM »

Hi,
I think that this description, always from Andrey, contains the composition of some prewar colors. Is it possible to obtain any useful information from this text?



Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2013, 06:27:15 AM »

Hi,
another table posted by Kari Lumppio on scalemodels.ru

describes AII colors and their postwar matches.
Regards
Massimo
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