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Author Topic: Chips of AMT-1, A-21m, A-28m and other paints  (Read 13038 times)
66misos
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« Reply #30 on: September 23, 2017, 01:45:42 PM »

Hi Massimo,

thank you for uploaded chips. I know, those chips are not dogmatic, but they give quite good idea about shades and that there was no one 100% correct shade, but there was intervals of shades (two intervals of two colors), so shades could vary a bit.

Could you, please, ask also for scans of AMT-11 and AMT-12. Then we will have basically full portfolio.
Plus, it would be interesting to see how close were the darkest AMT-11 and lightest AMT-12, e.g. "low contrast" combination and lightest AMT-11 to the darkest AMT-12, e.g. "high contrast" combination.

Regards,
   66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2017, 10:26:48 PM »

Hi Misos, I've asked Andrey, he sent many documents, but the chips of AMT-11 and 12 are those of Nakrasok, I think that you have already seen them.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2017, 09:42:49 AM »

Hi Massimo,

I have this scan from Albom Nakrasok:

There is one chip per color, AMT-11 and AMT-12 are quite different there.

According to:

AMT-11 is between 820 and 823, while AMT-12 is between 824 and 827. Note - each color has approved variation between three numbers/steps/levels(?), but minimal difference between AMT-11 and AMT-12 is only one number/step/level - 823 vs. 824.

Compare it to another one number/step/level difference: A-21m is between 627 and 628, or AMT-7 is between 952 and 953. Following the same logic then AMT-11 of 823 should be quite similiar to AMT-12 of 824, making minimal contrast.
Regards,
   66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2017, 09:04:29 PM »

Hi Misos,
this is an interesting consideration. I'll try to insist with Andrey.
Regards
Massimo
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righidan
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« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2017, 11:44:29 PM »

Dear Massimo,
   thank you so much for restoring the links to this most important topic.
   About Kartoteka, alias TU 6-10-1449-XX where XX is the year of print, like 92 for 1992, as long as I understand it, it is different from the like of FS 595.
   In a single page you have the same color, but one is printed matt and the other is gloss, so it can be used with paints of different smoothness, and nearby colors are often similar but not always: 612 and 613 are very different browns.
   You can see some colors of the Kartoteka, unluckily not all of them, at: http://lakokraska-ya.ru/ral , a site reported by Kari Lumppio some time ago, and have an idea of its structure.
   If you can be so kind to ask Mr. Averin for some scan, I beg you to ask him for a scan of the BACK of the chips: in the back there should be, handwritten in the older ones and printed in the more recent ones, the values of X, Y and Z, which are the determinants of the color shade according to the Commission Internationale de l'Éclairage (CIE) 1931 standard.
   Actually the CIE standard has changed, but there are many programs that convert the old values to the new ones, and while the color chips may have changed with time the numbers have remained the same: this is a standard after all!
   Having the correct values will make possible to compare the colors with other standards like FS 595 or RAL, to verify how correct are the modelling colors in production now, and even to reproduce them accurately using colors of today.
   Mr. Averin has always been a precious source of information, and we must remember that he has been the first to publish, in the first issue of the now defunct magazine “MIG”, in 1994, an accurate account of Russian colors in Russian language.
   I would finally ask forum members, after Photobucket went insane, which image hosting sites they have found reliable.
Best regards
Daniele
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Daniele
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2017, 08:03:06 AM »

Hi Daniele,
your considerations are very interesting. I've passed your request to Andrey, I hope that he will write the numbers on the back of the chips.
I didn't know the name of the chips collection, you have made things more clear for me.
About the link, my McAfee has given some warning.
I am very interested about criteria and methods of the CIE about colors. Where can I learn more about this?
Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2017, 07:23:51 PM »

Hi Misos,
Andrey has answered that it could be that chips with closer numbers aren't necessarily close in shade. I think that he hasn't those chips, else he would have sent them. Anyway your idea is interesting and it would deserve some researches.

Hi Daniele,
Andrey hasn't found notes on the back of the chips, bit he says to have a table with similar information.

Another interesting thing: the numerical codification was used in SSSR since the early '50s, so it didn't exist in 1941-45 when the AMT paints were formulated. The document scanned at the beginning of the topic is later. So, samples of wartime colors were identified with the numerical system and relative chips after the war.
On this forum, sometimes it was said (or at least I understood so) that paint factories utilized these chips during the war to define a range of acceptability, but this seems wrong.

Andrey has sent the last table of Soviet military colors (it was seen on scalemodels.ru) and seems that some colors and numbers match the kartoteka (es.760), but other ones are missing (es.741).
Besides the colors whose numbers started with 9 were moved or renamed under other numbers.



Regards
Massimo
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righidan
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« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2017, 10:47:11 PM »

Dear Massimo,
   about CIE, there is a very wide bibliography, in which I find easy to get lost.
   I can suggest a few publications that I found useful, and that are not too large.
   One is “HISTORY OF THE CIE 1913-1988” which can be freely downloaded at the address: http://files.cie.co.at/657_cie082-1990.pdf
   One very technical CIE publication, that I find very difficult to follow completely, but that can give an idea of the work behind colour determination is: "CIE 15: Technical Report: Colorimetry, 3rd edition,” that can be freely downloaded at: http://www.cdvplus.cz/file/3-publikace-cie15-2004/
   Another interesting test is “Gernot Hoffmann CIELab Color Space” with many formulas, but also with many nice illustration, from: http://docs-hoffmann.de/cielab03022003.pdf
   The one that I find most useful for normal, non-geek human beings is : “HunterLab Presents: The Basics Of Color Perception and Measurement” which is a pdf with a series of illustrated slides, prepared by one of the largest producers of instruments to measure colour, from the address: http://www.elscolab.nl/pdf/color.pdf
   Of course there many others, but even studying these four will take a lot of time, and for our scope, that is to understand how to measure airplanes colours correctly, I suppose that they can be enough.
    About TU 6-10-1449-, it is, just like FS595, a post war standard, but like FS595 it standardizes some wartime colours.
   All what I found about its introduction, from Russian Wiki and the site http://textarchive.ru/c-1138931.html, seems to indicate that it was devised in the “All-Russian Scientific Research Institute of Technical Aesthetics”.
   Here is a translation of what I found:
 “All-Russian Scientific Research Institute of Technical Aesthetics (VNIITE) is a research and design-experimental institute , an educational and methodological and information center in the field of design . It is under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Education and Science of the Russian Federation .

  The Institute was established in 1962 in Moscow on the territory of the Exhibition of Economic Achievements of the USSR in accordance with the Resolution of the Council of Ministers of the USSR No. 349 "On improving the quality of products of machine-building and cultural goods through the introduction of methods of artistic design."

  VNIITE together with the paint and varnish industry for 25 years improved the "Card of samples (standards) of paintwork materials color", through which the standardization and color control of paint and varnish materials was carried out, and instrumental methods controlled the quality of color reproduction standards, which allowed to maintain and maintain the color standards (and paint and varnish materials). The results of the work of VNIITE were reflected in TU 6-10-1449-85, in which for the first time a list of all the standards of the "Cartotek" with exact color names and color characteristics appeared, which, for the first time, allowed the domestic card index to be raised to the level of international standards such as RAL and TGL.”
   I must say that I have seen dates on photos that seem to suggest that some sort of standard was published from 1974 or maybe earlier.

   About Mr Averin: if he has a table with the X,Y,Z values, it is perfect!
   We do not need to have a physical example of the colour, which was supposed to last without hue changes for about three years, but if we can have the X,Y,Z values of 820, 823, 824 and 827, we can exactly reconstruct the shade of AMT 11 and 12.
   And also of all the other colours in which we are interested, and that do not appear in modern tables.
   I know that it can appear a little bit strange for us, that have grown comparing colours to the chips in the FS595, but believe me, it works!
   Best regards
Daniele

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Daniele
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #38 on: September 27, 2017, 10:14:16 AM »

Hi Daniele,
I've read the link about Hunterlab, it is certainly interesting. The difficulty of xyz method is that, when knowing the coordinates, we have to go to a paint mixer with colorimeter, because digital chips aren't very reliable; for example, I have seen digital chips of fs 34102 in the range of the brown instead of green.
From what you write, I think to understand that the chips of kartoteka are of the '60s, not of the '50s.
I'm still waiting the scan of the xyz table from Andrey.

Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2017, 09:17:22 PM »

Hi Daniele,
here are the scans of a booklet with x,y,z values from Andrey. Colors are numbered up to 9xx.
Please, let me know what you can obtain from this.
Regards
Massimo

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0001.jpg

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0002.jpg

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0003.jpg

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0004.jpg

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0005.jpg

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0006.jpg

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0007.jpg

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0008.jpg

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0009.jpg

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0010.jpg

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/averin/IMG_0011.jpg

« Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 09:22:31 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
righidan
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« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2017, 01:41:10 AM »

Dear Massimo,
   Bingo!!!
   Please thank Mr. Averin and promise him some good bottles of wine if he ever happens to be near Florence, where I live!
   And of course, some bottles are always ready for you!
   You are absolutely right, we cannot trust digital chips.
   But with the information you have just given, we can reach real colour chips.
   The first method is to have a colorimeter, then translate the XYZ values to L*A*B* and control how close to the original are the model colours you have.
   I do own a colorimeter, but it is rather expensive, and outside the interest of a “normal” modeler.
   But we can do a lot, with very little expense.
   Let’s take as an example the Kartoteka colour number 734, that according to Mr. Akan is one of the two limits of the colour 4BO.
   From the back of the Kartoteka chips, the values are: X=11,0 Y= 11,8 Z=7,7.
   You can see that they are the same from the image 008 you have sent, where for colour 734 we have X=11,095 Y=11,807 Z=7,765.
   They are the same values, with different decimals: perfect!
   Then you can use an xls free file to convert them to L*A*B* values, or use the program “Easy RGB” at the address http://www.easyrgb.com/en/ to convert them, and that program lets you find similar commercial colours using the function “Match” and as you can see, the commercial paint “N457 Tikkurila Symphony Opus I and II” is very similar to colour 734.
   I suppose that Tikkurila  produces real colour chips of their paint, and I am sure that savvy modellers can devise a way to get it.
   Then we have the English E-Paint co, that at http://www.e-paint.co.uk/ has a site where you can insert the L*A*B* values, and compare them to the most common colour standards.
   You insert the values and voila! You find that 734 is distinguishable only to the practiced eye if compared to the standard TSD 1-3-5 DIN 6164, but even more important for our practical interests, it is VERY CLOSE to FS595 24098!
   As human resourcefulness is very ample, we have another option: we go to sensuallogic “Paintmaker” site, at https://sensuallogic.com/paintmaker, and after inserting the RGB values of 734, that we have got from easyRGB, we have different mixing options using popular artist oil colours, in this case Winsor & Newton artist oils, and we can produce in our home a colour VERY SIMILAR to Kartoteka 734.
   Of course it is human, and so it is not perfect, but for us modellers is a huge advancement and we hope that it will put an end to VVS planes painted in venomous acid green.
   Now the work is to extract the colours that have been used on VVS airplanes, to convert them to L*A*B* values, and study the real colour chips that can represent them, and then I think that we can have some acceptable information about VVS colours.
   Moreover, if we can produce L*A*B* values for VVS colours, it will be very easy for modelling colour companies to market correct colours.
   I am happy and willing to give an hand, but I will be away from home for a medical meeting in the next few days, and I suppose that I will have many time constraints in the next weeks, but I must say that the magical team Massimo- Andrey has stricken a golden ball!
   Best regards
Daniele
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Daniele
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2017, 09:07:01 AM »

Hi Daniele,
I'm happy that you have clear ideas how to proceed.
To tell the truth, I've inserted these coordinates into the site, and it gives a shade that is more brownish than I expected. I've seen its saturated version on Photoshop, and it is a reddish yellow, not a lemon yellow as expected for a camouflage green. I wait to see a real painted chip to clarify the thing. I had the same problem with FS-34102, for example. The commercial names for some of the paints given as similar by the same site point on forest green. It seems that the rgb rendition on screen of these shades by colorimeters is unreliable.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #42 on: September 28, 2017, 09:35:21 AM »

Hi Gents,

very interesting information. I tried it for AMT-1, AMT-11 and AMT-12 and here are results:







It is interesting how dark are those colors and how little difference is between greys AMT-11 and AMT-12.
Regards,
   66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2017, 07:57:06 PM »

Hi Misos,
this is an interesting experiment.
As before, the look on the screen is different from my expectations, but the comparison between shades can be significant.
Unfortunately I don't know if those paints can easily be found near home.
I think to remember a modelistic site that made a similar work with paints for modelistic use, but I can't remember the link. Maybe on some old posts?
Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 07:50:59 AM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
66misos
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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


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« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2017, 10:56:40 AM »

Hi,
to have completed it, here are another two colors:

Green AMT-4


Light blue AMT-7


However, this is very important information:
...the numerical codification was used in SSSR since the early '50s, so it didn't exist in 1941-45 when the AMT paints were formulated. The document scanned at the beginning of the topic is later. So, samples of wartime colors were identified with the numerical system and relative chips after the war.
On this forum, sometimes it was said (or at least I understood so) that paint factories utilized these chips during the war to define a range of acceptability, but this seems wrong...
Document has in its header the date March 13th, 1956 (e.g. eleven! years after the WWII), and update on May 3rd, 1966.
Questions is - where they had color samples that were scanned from? From original wrecks? From old stocks? From the new production?
So also those chips are only indicative, no dogma. And endless discussions about the "right colors" can continuse ;-)
Regards,
   66misos
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