P-39 Airacobras in VVS

[66misos]

Hi,
there was quite long discussion on Airforce.ru forum, whether spinner, board number and tail are white or silver on this Cobra:

It was identified as Cobra from 403 iap of 2 giak, Leningrad PVO, May 1945.

It is similar to this Cobra from 103 giap of the same 2 giak:

at http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/photogallery/p-39_tikkakoski/index.htm

This is final statement of Mikhail Bykov:
"Вообще-то стандартными обозначениями самолетов частей 2 гв.иак ПВО были именно БЕЛЫЕ кок винта и хвост (киль и руль направления) самолета. Эффект "серебристости" на фото, возможно, возникает от того, что сама белая краска глянцевая + при вращении поверхность кока, вероятно, дополнительно "полируется" воздухом."
translated:
"Actually, the standard marking of the aircraft from the 2 giak PVO were just WHITE spinner and tail (keel and rudder). The effect of "silver" on the photo (of Cobra no. "38") may arise from the fact that the white paint was glossy + surface of the spinner was probably more "polished" by air during rotation."
Regards,
    66misos

[learstang]

That's interesting as I would have thought that the spinner in the GPW photograph was silver. It does seem that quite a few of the fighters in the Leningrad area had the white tails. I believe I've seen a PVO Spitfire Mk.IX with the white tail. Was this white tail common to all or most PVO units in the Leningrad area? Do you know if anyone has a profile of this aeroplane? I've always wanted to do a four-bladed VVS (or PVO) P-39, although I suppose I could figure out all (or most) of the colours and markings from the photograph.

Regards,

Jason

[KL]

This is final statement of Mikhail Bykov:
"Эффект "серебристости" на фото, возможно, возникает от того, ... при вращении поверхность кока, вероятно, дополнительно "полируется" воздухом."
translated:
"The effect of "silver" on the photo (of Cobra no. "38") may arise from the fact that... surface of the spinner was probably more "polished" by air during rotation."

if this was true we would use hair dryers and air blowers to polish and sand surfaces...  and sand paper manufacturers would go bankrupt!

Do you know what is "sand blasting"?  Obviously air on its own can't sand or polish the surface.  You need something harder than the surface - it is actually all about the hardness.  Harder the surface, even more hard sanding or polishing substance is needed.  That is why sand papers and polishing pastes are made of glass, quartz, corundum, garnets or diamonds (hard minerals...!).

Regards,
KL

[KL]

Although Bikov says that 2 giak PVO P-39 had WHITE spinners and tail, IMHO Airacobra which is preserved and displayed in Finland has correctly pained spinner and tail.  Its spinner was silver even before the restoration:



The spinner and tail were repainted during restoration, no doubts about that.  The paint and maybe even its texture, are not authentic - but its colour and general appearance are OK.

Our Finnish friends probably have photos of those P-39s that were captured in 1944.  These photos will show how Soviet silver paint looked during the war.

Regards,
KL

[66misos]

Hi KL,
this was alreay posted in the Sukhovs's P-39 thread http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1515.msg12235#msg12235:

Answers to the "Frequently Asked Questions", by museum staff:
We have been asked whether the paint of our Airacobra, currently under restoration, has been changed since the artistic brush marks of its Russian painter. The paint of the P-39Q under restoration has not been touched.
But... Soviet paint is not characterized by utmost permanence...So is there so much to wonder about if something falls off the surface of an airplane in a forced landing and in the ensuing shock?
The museum's aim is to preserve as much original as possible, in other words, we try to maintain the guise in which the aircraft made its forced landing...
So even if Finish silver is not authentic, same like 60 years old original, it is important, that it is silver and not white, yellow etc.

It was also written that silver was approved alternative to white.

I know that paint cannot be polished only with air (also Bykov wrote there "probably"), but I would accept white paint as generally more preferable option. If photo (moreless) clearly shows silver, I will go with silver, like Cobra in Finland. But without such evidence I would go with white paint.
Regards,
   66misos

[66misos]

Hi,
I just found this photo at propjet forum http://propjet.ucoz.ru/forum/2-60-2759-16-1335379522, the best quaily photo of these "shining" Cobras I found up to day:



Painted white? Painted silver? Or not painted but original RAF matt paint removed, i.e. duraluminium?  
Regards,
   66misos

[KL]

...photo of these "shining" Cobras
...
Painted white? Painted silver? Or not painted but original RAF matt paint removed, i.e. duraluminium?  

1.  You should be 100% sure that it wasn't bare duraluminium!  It was forbidden - there were no bare duraluminium planes in VVS....
2.  these are early (British?) P-39s so it has to be winter 1942-43 ->  Less likely to encounter permanent white or silver

IMHO, it's properly applied (sprayed?) MK-7, maybe in an overhaul depot.... strong reflections ("shining") are caused by the low sun and snow glare.

Maybe a case similar to these Mig-3s painted in white in an overhaul depot


 
  

[FPSOlkor]

Story with spinners might be much simpler - if they were NOT painted by US, and generally fit into @white nose@ scheme, there might be no need to paint them at all

[66misos]

Hi,
nice photo of P-39 under overall maintenance:

Note nonstandard font in serial number.
Regards,
   66misos

[66misos]

Hi,
here are pictures of "Soviet pin-up" painted on P-39 posted  in "A Lavochkin with a pin-up" thread at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1656.msg15294#msg15294
 




Massimo,
I am not decided whether to make profile of that P-39 or colorize one of these photos.
Btw, any idea about color of:
- no. 46 - seems to be darker than (clean) white (e.g. dirty white or yellow or silver?),
- outline of small victory stars and lightning/arrow,
- rear part of the spinner, behind propeller blades - seems to be different from red on the stars, or color of 46, or color of lightning?

regards,
    66misos

[learstang]

Well the "46" doesn't seem silver - no shine. I'm always skeptical about yellow on VVS aircraft so could it be blue?

Regards,

Jason

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Misos,
it seems that there are only the head and the arms of the woman. She has an hat and a shirt with black around the neck. It's difficult to understand the position of the hands, seems that she is posing with her hands under her chin. 
The number is darker than her skin. I don't think it is dark white because it is in front of the exhaust stacks, so it has to be yellow or blue. If it's the same color of the contour of the starlets, yellow is more likely.
Regards
Massimo

[KL]

Another "Soviet VVS pin-up" from http://vikond65.livejournal.com/4816.html



it's clearly a page from an American magazine glued onto the plane...

comment from the same link reveals pilots identity and unit:
Слава, на крыле кобры - комэск Николай Цисаренко, 102 гв. ИАП, Ленфронт...
Привет. Валерий (Киев)

regards,
KL

[KL]

it seems that there are only the head and the arms of the woman. She has an hat and a shirt with black around the neck. It's difficult to understand the position of the hands, seems that she is posing with her hands under her chin. 
The number is darker than her skin. I don't think it is dark white because it is in front of the exhaust stacks, so it has to be yellow or blue. If it's the same color of the contour of the starlets, yellow is more likely.

this may help a bit:

[Troy Smith]

This is one of the two photos I mentioned as being in Red Stars 4.

some great photos of Nieuport's with 'pin-ups' as well in the link.

Another "Soviet VVS pin-up" from http://vikond65.livejournal.com/4816.html



it's clearly a page from an American magazine glued onto the plane...

caption

Glory, on the wing of a cobra - Squadron Commander Nikolai Tsisarenko , 102 gv . IAP, Lenfront ...
Hello. Valery (Kiev)

comment from the same link reveals pilots identity and unit:
Слава, на крыле кобры - комэск Николай Цисаренко, 102 гв. ИАП, Ленфронт...
Привет. Валерий (Киев)

regards,
KL