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Author Topic: P-39 Airacobras in VVS  (Read 70747 times)
66misos
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« Reply #165 on: August 30, 2015, 09:41:46 AM »

Hi Massimo,
yes, on the first photo the color of the spinner is clearly different from the color of number and stripe, but similar to the overall "grey" color. On the second photo the color of the number and stripe does not much differ from the color of the spinner (and overall "grey" color). Huh
To make it a bit more tangled here is another statement from VIF regarding regimental colors - red/129 giap, blue/212 giap and white/213 giap:

"That's right, but with two nuances - firstly, by some accounts, 212 giap had yellow spinners and secondly, in the (212) regiment divisional stripe on the tail was sometimes painted in regimental color, on many photos it is clearly not white. The were not seen such deviations in 129 and 213 giap."

I more and more think that there are two different paintings of the same Cobra on those two photos, although photographed at one place but in different time.
Regards,
   66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #166 on: August 30, 2015, 10:56:45 AM »

Hi Misos,
Quote
"That's right, but with two nuances - firstly, by some accounts, 212 giap had yellow spinners and secondly, in the (212) regiment divisional stripe on the tail was sometimes painted in regimental color, on many photos it is clearly not white. The were not seen such deviations in 129 and 213 giap."
the thing of yellow spinner is interesting, but is it confirmed, or is an interpretation of bw photos of olive drab cobras? Eventually, the wartime yellow or blue spinner could have been overpainted grey .
It can be, of course, that the plane has changed its painting between two shots, but the spinner looks the same of the grey surface on both them.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #167 on: August 31, 2015, 04:40:47 PM »

Hi Misos & Massimo,

IMHO, yellow with red outline is more likely than blue with red/black outline.

Photo below was probably taken with yellow filter:



According to http://www.fineart-photography.com/bwfilter.html yellow filter
- "Probably the most widely used.  Offers an accurate tone range in compensating for the blue sensitivity of panchromatic films."
- Lightens yellow
- Darkens blue (sky)


True, on this photo, spinner is NOT white (meaning yellow)...

Photo below was taken without filters but on a film which makes red look black...



to my eye, spinner could be the same color as number and diagonal stripe.  Yes, gun ports are black/dark gray (or red?)

From AIF disscusion,  22.08.2015 12:00:40
"... с двумя нюансами - во-первых,по некоторым свидетельствам, 212 Гв.ИАП имел желтый кок, во-вторых, в полку иногда дивизионную полосу на оперении рисовали полковым цветом"

"...with two nuances: First - according to some accounts, 212 giap had yellow spinners and second - division (i.e. 22 giad) stripe was sometimes painted  in regimental colors"

So, it was 212 giap and both spinner and tail diagonal were yellow...

Regards,
KL

PS.  only problematic point in "yellow version" is spinner - a good compromise would be gray spinner.  Maybe 212 giap actually at one point switched from yellow spinners to unpainted spinners and yellow numbers and yellow diagonals?

« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 07:22:14 PM by KL » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #168 on: August 31, 2015, 07:21:30 PM »

Hi,
thanks for comments and advices. So here are the final profiles:



I hope I did not forget for something and I can move to another Cobra. Wink
Regards,
   66misos

« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 07:24:17 PM by 66misos » Logged

KL
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« Reply #169 on: August 31, 2015, 07:24:41 PM »

Hi Misos,
exactly what I have in my previous post.  Smiley

Maybe 212 giap actually at one point switched from yellow spinners to unpainted spinners and yellow numbers and yellow diagonals?

Cheers,
KL
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 07:26:12 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #170 on: September 01, 2015, 07:42:58 AM »

Hi Misos and KL,
this interpretation is certainly compatible with photos.
But, what about this statement?
Quote
To make it a bit more tangled here is another statement from VIF regarding regimental colors - red/129 giap, blue/212 giap and white/213 giap:
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #171 on: September 01, 2015, 08:37:34 AM »

Hi Massimo,
That statement (and some others from VIF) says that although standard regimental color for 212 giap was blue and divisional was white, there were eyewitnesses seeing also yellow color. And yellow color was seen also in other units (Sultan Ahmet Chan), or on other planes (La-7) that time.
So finally the yellow color seems to be a quite probable option.
Regards,
   66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #172 on: September 01, 2015, 01:51:44 PM »

Hi Misos,
Quote
And yellow color was seen also in other units (Sultan Ahmet Chan), or on other planes (La-7) that time.
Interesting, there is a light shade visible on photos of Lavochkins that was sometimes interpreted as a different shade of red. Is it sure that it was yellow?
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #173 on: September 02, 2015, 10:06:12 AM »

Hi Massimo,
I did not see any yellow spinner on Cobra in personal, but I have read about them in the several ocassions:

1.)
...Proshenkov


It is possible that the coloured spinner ring marks squadron: yellow on Shikunov's P-39 and red on Proshenkov's P-39...

2.) Cobra of Sultan Amet-Chan:

No known photo of this plane exist, I asked also at VIF Cry
However, description under picture:
"...this Cobra is sometimes drawn with the red spinner, but according to the veteran's memories the spinners on the Cobras from Sultan Amet-Chan's 3rd squadron were yellow."

Back to grey Cobra "44".
Red star on the fuselage does not have (or have very very thin) red outline. No star is visible on the left upperwing, as usual (not always) on the late Cobras.
IMHO there were no red stars on the upperwings, and red stars on the fuselage and underwings had only white outline.
Regards,
   66misos




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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #174 on: September 02, 2015, 11:57:27 AM »

Hi Misos,
I wonder if it's the same for his La-7 too.
regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #175 on: September 04, 2015, 11:43:26 PM »


2.) Cobra of Sultan Amet-Chan:

No known photo of this plane exist, I asked also at VIF Cry

However, description under picture:
"...this Cobra is sometimes drawn with the red spinner, but according to the veteran's memories the spinners on the Cobras from Sultan Amet-Chan's 3rd squadron were yellow."

Hi Miosos,

As you have also learned from M. Bikov, the profile is pure fantasy...

Two photos of 9 giap Airacobras you can easily find on the internet, show planes without tactical or individual markings:





Regards,
KL

 
« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 11:44:57 PM by KL » Logged
Dark Green Man
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« Reply #176 on: September 05, 2015, 03:04:21 PM »

does anyone have any more info on Alelyukhin's P-39 ?
I have his Yak-1b and La-7 on the build list and would add his P-39 if it is reasonable to attempt it.
Thanks !
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"when we lose the right to be different, we lose the priviledge to be free"--Charles Evans Hughes
66misos
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« Reply #177 on: September 05, 2015, 08:16:14 PM »

Hi,
as I wrote before, there is no known photo showing complete Alelyukhin's P-39.
One photo shows Alelyukhin in the cockpit, the second photo shows only the front part of fuselage. Non of them helps with marking. Moreover, on the second photo there are no white/bright details visible on the Cobras in the background.
That profile with the snake is pure fantasy, although reportedly drawn according to the memories of eyewitnesses.
Regards,
  66misos

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66misos
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« Reply #178 on: September 07, 2015, 06:46:44 PM »

Hi,
another P-39 to the late war 22 giad serie - now blue-nose Cobra from 212 giap:



EDIT Sept 9, 2015: Updated profile:


Regards,
   66misos
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 10:48:45 AM by 66misos » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #179 on: September 08, 2015, 08:21:56 AM »

Hi Misos,
very nice artwork.
Could the prop be black?
I think to see some repaintings.
Regards
Massimo
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