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P-39 Airacobras in VVS
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Author Topic: P-39 Airacobras in VVS  (Read 169946 times)
KL
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« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2014, 08:45:46 PM »

Hi Misos,
57 giap Spitfires had yellow arrows as a regiment marking:

К тому же в заблуждение вводили собратьев по оружию и желтые стрелы, нарисованные вдоль фюзеляжа, которыми мы украсили свои ?спитфайры?, ? отличительный знак полка.
Были приняты срочные контрмеры ? содрать с фюзеляжей традиционные ?украшения?.
Вооружившись стамесками, отвертками, металлическими линейками, перочинными ножами и прочими острыми предметами, мы пошли в атаку на желтые стрелы.
Скобяными работами мы были заняты все свободное время между вылетами, а потом, подкрашивали фюзеляж [195] светло-серой краской, под цвет англичанина, Но и после того, как были уничтожены стрелы, все же некоторые летчики и зенитчики продолжали путать ?спитфайр? с ?мессершмиттом?. В один из вылетов нашими ?яками? был атакован самолет гвардии лейтенанта Мироненко.


Ivanov always uses word "arrows", never "lightnings" - it is posible that the rear end of the marking could have had feathers/stabilizers, like here:


 
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 08:50:23 PM by KL » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2014, 05:15:17 PM »

Hi KL,
summarized, arrows on Spits were yellow (wuite dark), but without feathers/stabilizers, arrows on Il-2 were white with feathers/stabilizers.
The arrows on French N-N Yaks were white without feathers/stabilizers, but at the end part a bit thicker than on front part:
Photos from http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=ForumsPro&file=viewtopic&t=14430&printertopic=1&start=0&finish=-1

Btw, outline of the red star on this Yak was silver or white?

Arrows on P-39 seem to be white (brighter than serial numbers), of constant thickness. Without supporting photo I think/guess that on Cobras arrows were similiar to other "fighter" arrows, e.g. without feathers/stabilizers.

Star could be similiar to this one:

It is painted over standard US star but with thicker outline and thus top tip is going more up and both bottom tips are going more down.

   66misos
 
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KL
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« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2014, 06:25:58 PM »

From what we know about the regimental markings so far, colour was an important element.  If you change colour of the arrow, it isn't 57 giap any more.
White arrow was 303 iad marking.  If your Airacobra has white arrow it automatically belongs to 303 iad.
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Pascal
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« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2014, 11:00:49 PM »

Lightning is rarely seen on Yak-1s flown by Normandie pilots in 1943.  Maybe the "French Connection " can help...  Smiley

One Yak-1 of the Normandie is known with a white arrow, in october 1943 : the 23. But it is then the only Yak-1 remaining in the group, that flow Yak-9 at that time.



Normandie's planes surely wore the arrow in 1944, as the 18 GIAP's do.

Pascal
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KL
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« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2014, 03:30:38 AM »

Thanks Pascal,
this makes 303 iad and its 494 iap more likely for those two Airacobras with white arrows
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2014, 06:53:15 AM »

Hi Misos,
Quote
Hi Massimo,
I am too busy now to play with PS. So in the meantime just couple of questions:
- is that arrow/lighting white or yellow? I made it according to the Cobra in foreground. "Z" on the arrow/lighting on "13" is partially covered by pitot tube tip.
- I am not sure that digit "3" is so open on the bottom. Photo does not show it clearly. And that Spitfire has similiar upper part but bottom part is closed. Do you have exmple of such open digit "3"?
At present time I've found this one. Only, the photo is from far.


About the arrow: on the photo of P-39s it appears, on both planes, lighter than the snow on the background. I suppose it was painted white.
Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 06:55:09 AM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2014, 12:54:56 PM »

Hi Misos,
looks good. Excellent drawing indeed.
I will be glad to add it to your excellent page.  Today I've some problems with my usual mailbox, but I hope they will be resolved soon.
A question: I see the number with 5 digits on the photo. In another discussion on P-40s, I had the impression that often serials of US planes had 6 digits. Could you help me to understand the thing, please?
Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2014, 01:51:14 PM »

Hi Misos,
the mailbox is ok now.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2014, 08:03:09 PM »

If 494 iap then it should be autumn 1943, not winter 1943/44.

the regiment is still questionable  Embarrassed From the discussion about general Zaharov's Yak-3 it became clear that not all of the regiments that belonged to 303 iad had white arrow on their planes...
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66misos
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« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2014, 08:14:50 PM »

Hi Massimo,

thanks for comment. Cheesy
...I see the number with 5 digits on the photo. In another discussion on P-40s, I had the impression that often serials of US planes had 6 digits. Could you help me to understand the thing, please?
http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/usafserials.html:
Serial numer painted on the tail (officially called the radio call number, but almost universally known as the tail number) represents uniq identification number of the plane produced in the particular fiscal year. This system based on the United States Fiscal Year was introduced on 1 July 1921 and it continues to the present day. In 1940, the third sequence was started at 00001 (with five digits). When the third sequence reached 99999, it continued with six digits which continues to date.
Since military aircraft were at that time not expected to last more than ten years, the first digit of the fiscal year number was omitted. For example, Curtiss P-40B serial number 41-5205 had the tail number 15205 painted on its tail fin, Curtiss P-40K serial number 42-11125 had the tail number 211125 painted on the fin, and P-51B 42-106559 had 2106559 painted on the tail.

I will send you updated profile according to the last KL's comment. KL, thank you for correction Wink

Regards,
    66misos
« Last Edit: March 18, 2014, 08:44:02 PM by 66misos » Logged

66misos
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« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2014, 08:41:13 PM »

Hi,

here is updated profile accorging to your recommendations:
- letters 3 is changed,
- red star is enlarged, with silver/red outline and moved down,
- arrow is white,
- regiment changed from 329 IAD (57 IAP?) to 303 IAD / 494 IAP.



I deleted my previous alternatives to reduce number of incorrect pictures.

EDIT: http://www.wikiwand.com/ru/494-%D0%B9_%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BA

regards,
    66misos


« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 09:52:18 PM by 66misos » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #41 on: March 19, 2014, 01:01:01 PM »

Hi Misos,
I've received your mail. I'll upload it as soon as possible.
Regards
Massiimo
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66misos
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« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2014, 06:00:43 PM »

Hi,
I found at http://crimso.msk.ru/Site/Arts/Art3884.htm another "multicolor" P-39 - number "103" in "painting typical for spring 1945", as quoted from photo:

and this is artistic profile by Michail Bykov:


It is interesting how bright is that repainting. It looks even brighter than repainting on Sukhov's P-39 "50". Again, blue-grey AMT-11 or light brown AMT-1 or what?  Huh  I do not think that it is German paint.

    66misos
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KL
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« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2014, 06:30:45 PM »

"v tipichnoi okraske" may reffer to regimental markings, not to camouflage.

It is interesting how bright is that repainting. It looks even brighter than repainting on Sukhov's P-39 "50". Again, blue-grey AMT-11 or light brown AMT-1 or what?  Huh  I do not think that it is German paint.

"Polevoi Remont" instructions, in the part about the L-L planes, clearly indicate that nitro paints have to be repaired with nitro paints and that oil paints have to be repaired with oil paints.  IMHO, P-39s were painted with oil paints - so AMT nitro varnishes should be excluded.
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66misos
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« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2014, 10:07:57 PM »

Hi KL,
very interesting info. From VVS oil paints there are basicaly two options - A-24m green and A-21m light yellowish brown. A-24m, similar to AMT-4 and 4BO green, almost disappears on bw photos on Olive Drab background (blue circles repainting). So A-21m bright similarly on Il-2 seems to be the right candidate. A-32m Dark grey is too dark.
      66misos
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