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P-39 Airacobras in VVS
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Author Topic: P-39 Airacobras in VVS  (Read 163899 times)
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #75 on: April 18, 2014, 06:43:09 PM »

Hi Misos,
looks convincing enough. Much better than a blurried number.

Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #76 on: April 18, 2014, 09:17:47 PM »

HI Misos,
interesting analysis - much better than guessing the number!  Wink

P-39Q-30 was the last Airacobra subtype; when was it delivered to VVS and how that fits with the time when photo was taken?
Is that loop antenna related to any specific P-39 subtype?

Regards,
KL
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KL
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« Reply #77 on: April 19, 2014, 08:19:24 AM »

BTW, standard abbreviations for regiments and divisions were written in lower case ("small") letters in 1940es - it should be 68 giap, 5 giad if you want that detail authentic....
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #78 on: April 19, 2014, 09:01:38 AM »

Hi Misos,
I would thank Oleg Korytov that has sent the original high resolution image.
Regards
Massimo
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xan
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« Reply #79 on: April 19, 2014, 09:16:53 AM »

Very interesting missos , and well done!
Sorry if my  question is very basic, but : The red star were painted in USA ? That's why you don't represent the US roundel in AMT-4 ?
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66misos
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« Reply #80 on: April 19, 2014, 10:57:22 AM »

Hi All,
thankx all to answers & comments.

Massimo,
I did not know the source. But definitely great thanks to Oleg.

XAN,
red stars were painted both in SU (more at beginning) and in USA (more at the end).

I found link at US Militaria Forum http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/154273-bell-p-39-airacobra-aka-%d0%b1%d0%b5%d0%bb%d0%bb-%d0%bf-39-%d0%b0%d1%8d%d1%80%d0%be%d0%ba%d0%be%d0%b1%d1%80%d0%b0/ with interesting info:
"Late 1945 at Radom, Poland, the Soviets abandoned a crate with mystery P-39 in the US camouflage scheme, with complete USAAF markings (see below). Typically, all L-L P-39s were delivered with Red Stars painted according to the scheme agreed with the Soviets. That Radom specimen had complete US scheme. That P-39 was taken by the Poles to aviation engineer schools and finally landed at Warsaw Technical University, Aviation Faculty"
So nicely fit to my post http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg14364#msg14364

KL,
thanks for correction. Yes, it should be in lower case ("small") letters. I usually see upper case in English written texts. In Russian they add "-й", e.g. 68-й, so full correct designation should be e.g. "68th giap". Am I correct?
P-39Q-30 was the last Airacobra subtype; when was it delivered to VVS and how that fits with the time when photo was taken?
Is that loop antenna related to any specific P-39 subtype?
Actually, P-39Q-30 44-71461 was one of the last produced Cobra, they finished at 44-71504, e.g. only after next 43 plane.
I am not sure about that loop antena. I read somewhere on the net, that it was directorial antena used (mainly) during transfer via ASLIB. And that Soviets usually removed it. Anyhow, I saw it only on pictures of late Cobras:

P-39Q-25


P-39Q-20


P-39Q-15


fuselage from 44-2664, e.g. P-39Q-15




Regards,
    66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #81 on: April 19, 2014, 02:31:01 PM »

Hi Misos,
a plane with the large ventral tank could be nice for a profile, and maybe for a 3 views scale drawing.
Is it reproduced in any kit?
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #82 on: April 19, 2014, 08:46:15 PM »

thanks for correction. Yes, it should be in lower case ("small") letters. I usually see upper case in English written texts. In Russian they add "-й", e.g. 68-й, so full correct designation should be e.g. "68th giap". Am I correct?

Ordinal numbers are also incorrect - it should be 68 giap.
This was discussed on Russian forums many times:  those abbreviations were standardized for use on military maps and that is why they are not complaint with Russian grammar and linguistic rules.

Regards,
KL 
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barneybolac
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« Reply #83 on: April 20, 2014, 02:25:33 AM »

Anyone have a photo of white 12 belonging to Alexander L Carmine of the 129TH?

http://airaces.narod.ru/all2/karmin.htm

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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #84 on: April 20, 2014, 07:46:53 AM »

There was a photo of a (presumably) grey P-39 at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=674.0, but now it's gone. Probably it's still preserved in some hard disk.
Regards
Massimo
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barneybolac
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« Reply #85 on: April 20, 2014, 07:56:50 AM »

There was a photo of a (presumably) grey P-39 at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=674.0, but now it's gone. Probably it's still preserved in some hard disk.
Regards
Massimo

This photo?



I thought at first it might have been one of these aircraft.

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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #86 on: April 20, 2014, 08:54:19 AM »

Quote
This photo?
Probably. I thought to remember a better quality.
About the profile, I've tried an automatic translation

Quote
In the spring of 1944, after the 15th Air winning art painted hood karminovskoy "Airacobra" in red color with a recognized ace.

- We are here with a little mechanic painted in your car hood - said Carmine overnight technician level. - That, then, was more noticeable and more beautiful.

In the darkness Carmine could not see anything. And only in the morning understood: his nose "Airacobra" was painted not in the usual green and red.

On the same day the squadron flew Bekashonka to cover the troops of the 2nd Ukrainian Front, and a pair of Carmina - to cover his group. Bekashonok with its pilots appeared over the battlefield just in time: 18 "Junkers" unfolded for the bombing of our combat formations. Slightly taller dive bombers "grazed" 4-109.

Strike Group "Airacobra" took bombers. Carmine, ordering slave cover it, went to the rapprochement with the leading "Messer". But then came the voice of the headphones Chugunova that the engine of his car gives interruptions. Carmine had to send him to their base and continue the fight alone.

"Messer" immediately attacked him with a single machine 2 sides. There was an emergency. Karminskaya "Cobra" thrashed from side to side in alternating counterattacks, spewing fire. "Messer" rebounded, but ammunition is running out. Now followed by a new attack. Without waiting for her, Carmine deftly flew to the side of the leading car and drove almost the entire course of the rest of their ammunition. Aflame "Messer" crashed near KP Field Army. The rest of the triple-109 left to climb into the clouds. Following their "compliance" Carmine Alexander took part and at the expense of mental influence his red nose "Cobra".

Group Bekashonka meanwhile dispersed "Junkers" without giving them bombed, 3 bomber dogarali on earth. It's time to go back to their base and our fighters. But three "Messers" re stuck right carmine. Fly slightly to the side and looked at him. Carmine, waited a moment, suddenly rushed to the extreme Me-109. He rushed to the peak, Carmine behind him. Caught and pressed on, perched close to the tail, and led to his airfield. Now, they say, rammed! The remaining pair of "Messers" did not dare shoot: afraid to get in their way. "Messer" wanted to go through the wing coup, and the height of 300 meters - crashed into the ground. Couple-109 fired from a distance and went Carmine, damaging him screw.

Despite the successful completion of the match, returning to their base, Carmine ordered technique to paint the nose of the "Airacobra" in the normal color.

This looks hardly compatible with the profile.
The plane was lost  in the spring

Quote
May 31 there was a fight, the details of which are not blotted out in memory of Alexander Leontyevich and after the war. Rose in the air group "Airacobra" waged by the division commander, Lieutenant Colonel Leonid Goregliad. Senior Lieutenant Carmine on "Airacobra" tail number "12", together with his wingman Freedom flew above the main group.

Six enemy fighters appeared suddenly out of the sun. Couple "Messers", separated from the main group, rushed to the plane division commander. "Goregliad! Thee Attack! - Carmine passed by radio and rushed to intercept. Went into a nosedive." Messer "was in the crosshairs. Fire from all onboard weapons - and the Me-109 broke apart in the air.

After the attack Carmine looked around but did not find Frida. In the heat of battle was lost slave - he was young, has not fired a pilot. Carmine did battle turn and climbed higher. Saw the second "Messer", which went into its territory, and gave chase. German anti-aircraft guns opened fire on our aircraft. Shells hit the wing and cockpit. Carmine was wounded in the leg and arm. The plane caught fire. "Jump!" - Flashed the thought, but, glancing down, he saw leaving the Me-109.

"No! - Carmine decided - will burn itself, but also will not give you leave." Through the pain, he introduced the "Cobra" and into a steep dive, firing cannons and machine guns, catching up "Messer" bumped into him. Shot from the pilot lost consciousness. How was thrown out of the plane and pulled the parachute ring - can not remember. Awoke from jerk reveal dome. The remaining four "Messers" trying to avenge his master died, the wounded pilot fired - bullets hit in the back and leg.

Carmina landed pulled from the neutral area on which it is blown by the wind, a woman - a doctor. While bandaging the wounded pilot, commander of the unit, which landed on a plot Carmine went to the fallen aircraft - the benefit they lay side by side - looked at them. He brought his Carmina planchette coated with her intelligence and 2 "Iron Cross" dead German ace.

P-39 A.L.Karmina
Thus ended this sortie Alexander Carmina. For his feat, he was awarded the Order of the Red Banner. In total, during his participation in World War II, he made ​​221 sorties. After spending 31 dogfight, shot down 19 enemy aircraft in person and 14 in the group with his friends (M. Yu Bulls in their research indicates 17 personal and group 1 victory) .
Again, if I have understood well the text, this looks scarcely compatible with the profile.

Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 09:14:13 AM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #87 on: April 20, 2014, 07:34:43 PM »

Hi,
I back with Ovsyannikov "42" from http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg14408#msg14408
Quotes from Ovsyannikov interview: "In our regiment we had white spinners, and I think the rudders were also white..."

I superimposed high resolution photo with P-39 color profile to better see surface painting details on the Cobra next to (behind) Ovsyannikov?s Cobra ?42? - bottom part of the vertical white "band" on the rudder is more back, it looks like either much wider band or almost half of the rudder painted white. I marked it with black dots:



Plus, here is another profile, P-39 "103", 213 giap, from my post at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg14256#msg14256
For light color I used A-21m chip from KL's post at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg14261#msg14261 - mix of top two examples.





Regards,
    66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #88 on: April 21, 2014, 07:54:00 AM »

Hi Misos,
the overimpression of the white band of the profile is a bit confusing, but it seems that the white part of the rudder was the back one. Where the curvature disappears behind the elevator, the rudder is nearly ended, I don't think that they masked a olive nail of 3 cm. I don't distinguish well the front contour of the white part on this photo.
About the very nice profile of 103, the emblem on the door is too wide, it should be more distant from the lower part of the door.
The repaintings on the back could be a bit sharper, the one under the exhausts should be closer to the panel's contour.
Excellent work anyway.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #89 on: April 21, 2014, 12:17:25 PM »

Hi Massimo,

here I put detail of that high res photo with increased contrast together with tail from my profile to see it better:

It really does not seems to be the band of the same width and in the same position as on the plane "28". Left side of the white part is clear arch. Right side of that white part is not vertical line - if it is shadow of the horizontal stabiliser then it is not far from Ovsyannikov's memories - rudder completly white. Huh

Regards,
    66misos
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 06:33:24 AM by 66misos » Logged

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