P-39 Airacobras in VVS

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Misos,
I suspect that particular conditions of light, as low sun and perhaps some ice on the surface, can give the idea of a metallic reflection on white surfaces.
Look at this image:



Both the Il-2 and the MiG-3s looks silver. But it's very unlikely that 3 planes of 2 different units in 1942 had all silver finish. So it can easily be a joke of the light.
In the case of MiG-3s, we have strong evidence that the nose of n.12 was painted silver for comparison to n.02 that clearly wasn't.
Regards
Massimo

[66misos]

Hi Massimo,
here is another Il-2 in (most probably) white looking quite glossy, like silver, in low direct sun (long sharp shadows):

So yes, in cases above, those Cobras included, surface of the planes could matt white, only in some cases it can look quite glossy due to photo quality (high contrast), and/or snow/ice on the surface etc.
Regards,
    66misos

PS: Anyhow, silver Cobra would be very nice.

[KL]

Hi Misos,

Just a note: both regular (permanent) white paint and silver paint were sometimes used as substitutes for the temporary white MK-7.  Permanent white paint was almost certainly glossy - there was no white paint among AMT paints.  So, there were basically three options:

1.  Matt temporary white MK-7
2.  Glossy permanent white
3.  glossy, highly reflective silver

MK-7 was the most common, standard winter camouflage.  Permanent white and silver were the occasional substitutes.

Regards,
KL  

[Massimo Tessitori]

No doubt, Il-2 n.2 in silver would be more interesting than in white.
Regards
Massimo

[KL]

No doubt, Il-2 n.2 in silver would be more interesting than in white.

Go ahead, make an interesting profile!  

I saw last year in Lyon's exposition an silvered interpretation of the pic

XAN, that kit in bare metal, it is different story. Plus I do not think it had half of the wing painted red.

It's an old myth, I remember reading about the red wings in 1970es in World War II Aircraft by Christopher Chant.  Supposedly wings were painted in red to help to find planes after force landing on snow.  It was an analogy with polar exploration planes - those had wings painted in red, but in 1950es and 1960es, not during WWII.





Of course this analogy was a guess, far from reality.  High-visibility wingtips were unknown in Soviet VVS during the WWII.  Interpretations in western books and magazines probably influenced drawings published in the Soviet "Modelist-Konstruktor" magazine in 1977.

[66misos]

Hi KL,
thank for interesting info. I definitely abandoned idea of red wings on P-39 or Mig-3 during war time.
 
However, I am still not fully confident with those Cobras painting white
I do not understand why they should paint them with permanent (glossy) white. And then repaint them back with OD from stock or green A-24m or AMT-4, if I (or them) considered already painted surface as primed. Moreover, white spinners on other Cobras look matt, very rare at least semi-gloss, i.e. at http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/photogallery/30giap/index.htm or http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/ovsyannikov/index.htm
Ice, snow or optical illusion are also options, but white on planes (Migs, LaGGs, Yaks, Ils...) is in vast majority hard matt under any possible light conditions. I have not seen high quality photo showing such glossy white winter painting yet.
So if there is no clear evidence (close high quality photo, text document etc.) and if I use analogy and probability based on pure statistics, it still have tendency to accept alluminium as more probable.
Regards,
   66misos

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi,
I suggest to make a research on photos of planes of other nations (Germans, Finns) that painted their planes white in similar light conditions, and see if some of them appear silvery too.
Regards
Massimo

[KL]

I do not understand why they should paint them with permanent (glossy) white. And then repaint them back with OD from stock or green A-24m or AMT-4

"Substitutes" were used when required "first choice" wasn't available.  They had to camouflage planes, but they didn't have matt MK-7; so they were allowed to use permanent white or silver instead.  Very simple....

Planes camouflaged in silver were repainted in spring, same as planes painted in glossy white.  Because both silver and glossy white were permanent paints and it would be too complicated to remove them.  Very simple again....

Moreover, white spinners on other Cobras look matt, very rare at least semi-gloss

Spinners colour at Leningrad Front and in the North is also a big unknown.  Some are interpreted as white although they look silver.  Some are interpreted as silver, but they may have been glossy white.

When applied on markings, numbers and star borders (permanent) glossy white and silver were treated as equals, as one.  In 1944/45 some factories used silver for star borders, others used glossy white.  This is confirmed!

So if there is no clear evidence (close high quality photo, text document etc.) and if I use analogy and probability based on pure statistics, it still have tendency to accept alluminium as more probable.

As I said, for VVS, glossy white and silver were the same... IMHO, chances to encounter them are 50:50.  

Regards,
KL

[learstang]

So Konstantin, a silver over blue Il-2 might be possible? Now that would make a brilliant model! By the way, everyone, I just sent off a manuscript of the history of the Il-2 to be published (it was solicited by an actual publisher in the UK, so unless it's truly bad, it will be published). I will no doubt make a nice, big announcement when it's actually published.

Regards,

Jason

[AC26]

I suggest to make a research on photos of planes of other nations (Germans, Finns) that painted their planes white in similar light conditions, and see if some of them appear silvery too.

Hi!

At least Finnish winter distemper wa dead flat. It doesn't look silver at all in the pictures.

Cheers,

AaCee

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Jason, what is the dead line to update the drawings in it?
Regards
Massimo

[learstang]

Hi Massimo! Thank you for those great profiles! As far as what's in the book, I can probably change some out when I start to make the inevitable editorial changes. I'll let you know via PM.

Best Regards,

Jason

P.S. If you're thinking about a silver over blue Il-2, I'd love to see it - if nothing else, I still have my Modelling Guide to work on and I can now get back to it.

[66misos]

Hi Gents,
I would like not to mix Ils in Cobras thread and moreover I think "silver" Il-2 deserves its own topic, so I started it in the Ilyushins section at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1799.0.
Regards,
   66misos

[Massimo Tessitori]

OK Jason, keep me informed.
Regards
Massimo

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi AaCee,

At least Finnish winter distemper wa dead flat. It doesn't look silver at all in the pictures.

Interesting. Tapani said the same thing.
Now we need an expert of German planes.
Regards
Massimo