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P-39 Airacobras in VVS
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Author Topic: P-39 Airacobras in VVS  (Read 163849 times)
66misos
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« Reply #150 on: August 23, 2015, 09:30:40 PM »

Hi KL,
I am not able to say from the photo, whether that Cobra is overall grey, or it has blue (AMT-7) under surfaces and only sides and upper surfaces are grey (or bluegrey AMT-11).
According to the VIF there is Chepinoga on the photo and he was tranfered to the other division after the winter 1944/45.
And, IMHO, on the Cobra tail in the background is war-time 22 giad element of the fast recognition - white diagonal stripe, which seems to be repainted after the war, something like here:

Regards,
   66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #151 on: August 24, 2015, 07:09:25 AM »

Hi,

note the ceremonial swords. If it's possible to recognize the men and find if them both received an award on the same day, this could date the photo.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #152 on: August 25, 2015, 01:59:56 AM »


According to the VIF there is Chepinoga on the photo and he was tranfered to the other division after the winter 1944/45.
And, IMHO, on the Cobra tail in the background is war-time 22 giad element of the fast recognition - white diagonal stripe, which seems to be repainted after the war...


Neither of those are proofs that the photo was taken in winter 1944/45.  Chepinoga may have been visiting old friends in winter 1945/46 or winter 1946/47.  Wink

Again, the question is: why would they completely repaint a new airplane?.  Only planes which clocked a certain number of hours in air were overhauled and repainted, not new planes.

note the ceremonial swords. If it's possible to recognize the men and find if them both received an award on the same day, this could date the photo.

IMHO, swords indicate a parade, something like "victory parade" in June 1945



Regards,
KL
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 02:05:27 AM by KL » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #153 on: August 25, 2015, 04:42:42 PM »

Hi,
according to the info from VIF forum this picture:

is completly unreliable. It was drawn according to the memories, no known photo of that plane exists. Even board number "12" wrong, Karmin had different...

This photo:

is not reliably dated and it does not show full plane - to compare color of the red star and number "100", whether the number is black or red etc.

So it seems that only this after-the-war photo:

can teorethicaly show Cobra still with war-time marking (white number "44" and white diagonal stripe on the tail)
there were repainted during the overhaul, so this next photo:

could show the final appearance of the same Cobra after the overhaul.

So from the pictures above only this:

could be the possible candidate for grey war-time Cobra.

Regards,
   66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #154 on: August 25, 2015, 05:43:52 PM »

Hi Misos,
Quote
it does not show full plane - to compare color of the red star and number "100", whether the number is black or red etc
I think that this photo darkens reddish colors as faces, brownish uniforms, olive drab plane on the background, and lightens bluish ones, as the sky and the neutral grey supposed on the blades. On this base, I think that the color of the number is compatible with red (and with black, of course)..
Quote
could show the final appearance of the same Cobra after the overhaul.
Here we see two thin dark lines on the tail. This suggests that the deletion of the mark was partial, and made after the grey repainting of the whole plane.
regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #155 on: August 27, 2015, 09:14:06 AM »

Hi,
here are working alternatives:

EDIT: Work In Progress deleted.

All colors are from http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/color-table.html.

Regards,
   66misos
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 07:26:48 PM by 66misos » Logged

66misos
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« Reply #156 on: August 28, 2015, 03:41:51 PM »

Hi,
The little vent between propeller and nose gear leg as well as wing guns are missning on Cobra no. "44", so it should be either late N (with removed wing guns) or early Q version in standard configuration. This Cobra could be old enough for war-time overhaul and repainting with the war-time paints for single-seat fighters.
The other two fighter regiments from 22 giad used "regimental" colors on spinners/noses at the end of the war - 129 giap red color, 213 giap white color. Therefore, if repainted during the war, I painted spinner blue, same as outline of the board number and diagonal stripe on the tail. I know it is not fully confirmed, but...

Cobra no. "100" is version Q21-25 (4-blades propeller).
...the question is: why would they completely repaint a new airplane?.  Only planes which clocked a certain number of hours in air were overhauled and repainted, not new planes...
Agree with KL, so without additional info I tend to preffer after-war paints. When comparing contrast from the long distance (e.g. small picture), black board number is better visible than red one.
Regards,
  66misos
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 07:27:50 PM by 66misos » Logged

KL
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« Reply #157 on: August 28, 2015, 09:50:40 PM »

Hi Misos,

IMHO, the two photos of the Airacobra No "44" were taken at the same airfield and approximatelly at the same time - within days...  Wink note the 2-level building with shallow, almost flat roof in the background on both photos!!!  The cover on the cockpit canopy also looks almost the same:





1.  Lower photo also shows that number 44 and tail stripe can not be white - those two elements are not the same as the white outline of the red star...
2.  Blue outline on fuslage number and tail stripe isn't contrast enough  against gray or blue-gray - it's more likely red, same as red star on the lower photo
3.  number 44 is underlined on both photos

IMHO, both the number and tail stripe could be yellow outlined in red or light blue outlined in red

Yellow filter and films with different sensitivity may cause stripe to look white on one photo and gray on the other...

HTH,
KL
« Last Edit: August 28, 2015, 09:54:14 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #158 on: August 28, 2015, 10:57:47 PM »

Hi Misos,
in my idea, none of the photos of n.44 justifies that it has a lighter color on undersurfaces. So i think it was uniform grey, or that preserved the undersurfaces in neutral grey.
Am I wrong, or you've drawn the stabilizer in dark color? The dark thing on the first photo can easily be the  shadow of a crane.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #159 on: August 29, 2015, 10:19:41 AM »

Hi,
thanks for comments.
l would like to summarize the comments before I spam this thread with another pictures Wink:
- diagonal stripe and number 44 have evident outline,
- number 44 is evident free-hand work and is underlined with the (probably) same color as outline,
- red star on the fuselage seems to be without thin red outline, at least I do not see it there,
- for the spinner I would choose the light blue color, as it was regimental fast recognition element,
- for the same reason I would choose the same light blue for diagonal stripe and number 44. It is question whether only spinner or also part of the front fuselage was blue (like red noses on Cobras from 129 giap, or white noses in 213 giap that time). I see there darker line which is not usually so visible on the other Cobras. Is it (red?) line separating light blue nose from AMT-11 fuselage? Also some darker color is around the nose guns (?)

Well, as I already wrote, it is question whether one photo shows Cobra during overhaul but still in pre-overhaul (war-time) appearance and the second photo shows the same Cobra after overhaul (still same locatiom, but several hours/days latter) in her new, more decorative/colorfull appearance.

...i think it was uniform grey, or that preserved the undersurfaces in neutral grey.
Am I wrong, or you've drawn the stabilizer in dark color? ...
- IMHO if repainted grey (AMT-11?) during the war, I would say that final appearance should be closer to the standard scheme, e.g. light blue under surfaces.
- stabilizer is darker by mistake, probably forgotten layer. Thank you for remark.

There were no comments on "100". So as the final version I would take the after-war overall blue-grey (AGT-16?) with the black board number.
Regards,
   66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #160 on: August 29, 2015, 01:14:11 PM »

Hi Misos
Quote
- IMHO if repainted grey (AMT-11?) during the war, I would say that final appearance should be closer to the standard scheme, e.g. light blue under surfaces.
please, compare the shade of the fuselage sides and of the landing gear doors with the same angulation, and then compare the contrast between light blue and blue-grey on the sides of any Yak or Lavochkin. I don't see the same contrast, if any.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #161 on: August 29, 2015, 05:36:43 PM »

Hi,
here is something for discussion:
- Cobra is overall blue-grey.
- Blue number & stripe over blue-grey surface nicely fits the photo after overhaul, but not the one before/during overhaul, it is too little contrast. Even red outline seems to be little contract. It was probably black.
- So the yellow/orange spinner+number+stripe with black outline could be OK. But did they (in 212 giap & generally) use yellow color instead od blue?
Regards,
   66misos
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 07:29:08 PM by 66misos » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #162 on: August 29, 2015, 07:35:16 PM »

Hi,
the shade of the contour of the numbers on the photo is compatible with the shade of the star. Could also be black, of course.
The photo shows a dark ellipse around the guns. It's not the shadow of the propeller.
I can't see the red outline around the star on the photo.
If blue is the color of the regiment, I would go with it. Saturate colors can change look depending on the film and filter, and the sky itself looks very light on the first image.
I don't think that the spinner was coloured. It appears identical to the fuselage.
Besides the cylinder on the top of the spinner looks darker than the spinner itself.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #163 on: August 29, 2015, 10:13:09 PM »

Hi Massimo,
I went again through the discusion at VIF about grey Cobras and there was said that Cobra "44" was grey and spinner should be blue. Not specific what grey and what blue.
Front landing gear leg seems to be repainted with the same light "grey" like upper surface so it is very probable that Cobra overall was really in one color. Also front leg on "100" is bright, although originally it is dark green.
Cannon tube cover on the spinner and ellipses around nose guns seems to be in the same color, same/similar like red star - kind of decoration Huh

I really do not know whether originally white stripe on the tail is only roughly repainted by brush with bluegrey color, e.g. deleted, or it was repainted with some new regimental color, let's say light blue.
Regards,
  66misos
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 07:29:38 PM by 66misos » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #164 on: August 30, 2015, 08:55:10 AM »

Hi Misos,
a change in the shade of the spinner could also pass unobserved on the second photo, given that the number and band appear similar to the background, but not on the first one where they appear white and the spinner doesn't seem so.
I think that the dark parts on the guns should be black or dark grey, to hide traces of fumes.
Regards
Massimo
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