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Author Topic: P-39 Airacobras in VVS  (Read 70881 times)
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #195 on: January 22, 2016, 10:15:34 AM »

Yes, looks the same when new, but I think that the late OD has a better resistance to fading than the earlier one. I am not expert of US paints though.
The wide photos are beautiful, but create difficulties of visualization and perhaps an increase in traffic. Could you resize them, please?
Regards
Massimo
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Graham Boak
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« Reply #196 on: January 22, 2016, 03:00:44 PM »

I think this may be confusion with the US/UK agreement of common colours, in particular ANA613 Olive Drab.  However, according to the researches of Dana Bell, the USAAF did not adopt these colours and continued requesting Olive Drab 42 as before, before switching almost entirely to bare metal finishes.  Considerable confusion has arisen because, at least  in the early years of the Pacific War, the USAAF did not keep a strong control over manufacturers when it came to colour standards.   Any brand of OD would do - which is why you will see considerable differences even on the same aircraft.  The tail of B-17s was commonly darker and greener than the fuselage, because they were made in different factories.  C-47s could be seen in at least three different colours with the fuselage in a sandy brown, the wing in a greyish olive and the tail in a darker shade.  The fabric covered flying surfaces would be different again.  With the paint coming from different manufacturers, using different pigment mixes, they could then proceed to weather/fade/chalk in different ways.

However, I think the very dark grey seen on the crashed C-47 would seem extreme even allowing for this.
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #197 on: January 22, 2016, 05:20:15 PM »

The dark color on the fuselage looks overposed to a previous lighter OD layer. I think we all agree that it was repainted, the doubt is the original look of the paint.
About ANA 613, Soviet AF continued to receive od P-63 in 1944. Were they painted with this paint in factory?
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #198 on: January 23, 2016, 01:22:46 AM »

American paints, lacquers, pigments etc were included in lend-lease shipments. but, official documents list small amounts of paints in Lend-lease shipments:
in protocols and shipments lists at http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/documents/files/Part_1_pages_13-28.pdf
there is only

Quote
Lacquer Bakelite   11,200 lbs
Lacquer Black      56,000 lbs

there is a list of material shipped to USSR at http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/pearl/www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/lend.html
"From Major Jordan' Diaries" doesn't sound official  Angry  looks like a chapter from a book  Huh

Quote
Kalsomine o.c.w. paints, dry           34,236 lbs.         $11,786.
Lacquers, nitrocell clear             13,598 lbs.         $27,050.
Lacquers, nitrocell pigmented           2,276 lbs.          $3,335.
...
Paints, bitimious liquid plastic          --          $188,2?4.
Paints, colors, paste, oil, n.e.s. 2,341,892 lbs.     $279,679.
Paints, etc., ready mixed, n.e.s.    176,211 gal.     $298,321.
...
Chemical pigments, n.e.s           92,583 lbs.       $34,817.
...
Chrome pigments                    51,426 lbs.       $11,746.


MlSCELLANEOUS FOR 1945 ONLY

Quote
Paint spraying equipment & parts           938.
...
Ready mixed paints, stains, enamels       28,622 gal.     
Pigments, chrome l0% chrome                9,374 lbs.     
Pigments, chemical, n.e.s.                12,022 lbs.     
Paint, colors, paste oil, n.e.s.         668,409 lbs.     
Water paints, dry                         22,400 lbs.       
Laequers, nitrocell pigmented              4,650 gals.

IMHO, quantities for nitro-cellulose lacquers, which would be important for Soviet aviation industry are small.  Some of the numbers in this list are substantial, 1,000 tonnes of n.e.s. paint (n.e.s. means "not especially specified")  Shocked those are not necessarily aviation paints - could be paints for ships, industrial plants etc.

I would say that Soviets received significant amounts of chemicals used in paint production (like 3,300,000 lbs of acetone) and some pigments. In the end, VVS planes were painted with Soviet made paints in shades requested by VVS and NKAP.

Regards,
KL
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66misos
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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


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« Reply #199 on: February 09, 2016, 10:21:30 PM »

Hi,
another interesting Cobra(s) from http://sputniknews.com/art_living/20150726/1025061931.html and http://survincity.com/2012/02/russian-fighter-aces-on-the-lend-lease-part-c/:

During delivery:


Already in the regiment - according to VIF it should be 9 iap (latter 211 giap):


Compare the noseart(s):
upper Cobra has white woman head with the hat plus text "Buffalo..." while on the second photo the hat and text is missing - it could be repainted green (same Cobra), or they are two different Cobras.
Note repainted serial number on the "67" tail.
Regards,
   66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #200 on: February 10, 2016, 08:10:32 AM »

Hi Misos,
nice image. It would be interesting to know if the mark refers to a normal school and is strictly individual, or if there is any military school there that could justify a collective marking. I think that Ilya Grinberg could know this.

I've seen another plane with apparently shining blades.

I suspect that it's only the effect of a gloss finish in particular conditions of light.

Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #201 on: February 10, 2016, 04:00:43 PM »

Hi Massimo,
according to the info from VIF the plane was (or planes were) built from the money colleceted in the School no. 51, Buffalo, NY, e.g. this plane is (or these planes are) related to one particular school.
Regards,
    66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #202 on: February 13, 2016, 03:58:51 PM »

Hi Misos,
so it's possible that the planes of the photos were not the same.
Anyhow, I think that some license is possible in drawing profiles, if they are explicitely declared into the text.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #203 on: February 13, 2016, 07:23:21 PM »

Hi,
here are another photos posted at VIF:


Painting "Lady in V" is on the both sides of the fuselage. Lady's hat seems to have different color and text :Buffalo school..." is missing.



I guess:
- "V" is red,
- lady is white,
- hat is dark (red, blue?)

Regards,
   66misos



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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #204 on: February 14, 2016, 07:08:41 AM »

Hi Misos,
so, you project to represent plane n.67, without the inscription and with a dark hat.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #205 on: February 26, 2016, 06:00:47 AM »

Hi,
I do not know, but repainting colors on all these aircrafts looks very similliar - solid dark color on the upper surfaces and light color on the bottom with (relatively) sharp demarcation line between those two colors:

Bf-109F



P-39


Me-262


I know it is speculation, they are different aircrafts from the different time period, but they all remind me these repainted Cobras from present days, painted what they had - some green and blue (not grey):





or with dark grey / black Huh on upper surfaces like this P-63:


Regards,
    66misos
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 06:08:46 AM by 66misos » Logged

66misos
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« Reply #206 on: February 26, 2016, 05:38:58 PM »

Hi,
according to http://www.warbirdregistry.org/p39-p63registry/p63-444011.html P-63 "08" s/n 444011 is a composite build from severa Kingcobras.
Here is another versions of the same aircraft:


Note that Il-2 single-seater in the background, seemt also repainted latter.

None of them id OD/NG. So from all "fictional" alternatives IMHO most attractive is that dark grey (black) version. Wink
Regards,
   66misos
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KL
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« Reply #207 on: February 26, 2016, 07:46:57 PM »

I would not pay too much attention to those 1:1 scale models, monuments etc.  I haven't seen a single one that is painted in historically accurate colours.



HTH,
KL
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66misos
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« Reply #208 on: February 26, 2016, 08:01:23 PM »

Hi KL,
my point was that they seem so paint those aircrafts with the paints they had on hands in the present day. Like what they had on hands in fourties. Question is "what did they have on hands in 1943-45 period?"
Regards,
   66misos
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KL
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« Reply #209 on: February 26, 2016, 08:33:53 PM »


my point was that they seem so paint those aircrafts with the paints they had on hands in the present day.


Paint cost some money and it's usually political leadership of a city or a region or a donor who provides funds for restoration.  Restorers than buy paint they think is appropriate.  Those planes are painted in wrong colours and silly schemes only because restorers had no clue how real planes looked like...

That poor Su-2 model in Volgograd (former Stalingrad) has been fixed and repainted in meantime.  Now it looks like this:



Better, but still wrong.

Regards,
KL
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