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Author Topic: P-39 Airacobras of Glinka brothers  (Read 17826 times)
Flavio
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« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2014, 08:03:43 PM »

It looks that the popeller of Dmitrii Glinka's P-39K did't have "Aeroprop" emblems:




HTH'
KL
  

Dear all,

I have Roman's book where the picture above was published; in this version the reflection light over the kill markings is not so bright and I suspect there were not kill markings hidden by the reflection; to say better in my opinion the kill markings on Glinka's plane were in three rows (the first is not visible) with 4+4+7 stars.

I can post this picture, but I don't want to break the law of copyright (tell me Massimo).

Anyway 66misos did a great job  Shocked

Flavio
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 08:17:11 PM by Flavio » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2014, 08:36:41 PM »

Hi Misos,
so, there is hope that you find a compromise. Very well, it would be the best thing by far.
Anyway, it would be interesting to know if he owns  the one original print/negative, or a print from a negative of a public archive.
Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2014, 08:44:25 PM »

Hi Flavio,
I think you can post the image, with the due credit.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2014, 08:58:19 PM »

Hi Misos and Massimo,
I have modified all my posts in this thread as per Valeriy Romanenko's request.

IMHO, author reaction was inappropriate.  It's not fair to pinpoint this forum, now when those photos have been already posted all over the Russian internet.  Moreover, (illegal, I know...) scans of V. Roman's book are also widely available...  What's the point of his request?  Misos did research, made profiles, modified them several times and all that for free.  I have spent couple of hours searching those official documents and I posted my findings for free...

I have Roman's book where the picture above was published; in this version the reflection light over the kill markings is not so bright and I suspect there were not kill markings hidden by the reflection; to say better in my opinion the kill markings on Glinka's plane were in three rows (the first is not visible) with 4+4+7 stars.

Hi Flavio,
I also have V. Roman's book, thanks to my wallet.  You are right, first row on the photo may have only 4 victory stars.  In the end, V. Romanenko could probably date this series of photos and solve the mystery.

Regards,
KL  
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Flavio
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« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2014, 09:16:12 PM »

Hi Flavio,
I think you can post the image, with the due credit.
Regards
Massimo

Here my scan

From book "Airacobras over Kuban" by V. Roman, pag.1

Flavio
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2014, 10:43:29 PM »

I agree that it is excessive, but I hope that the credits will be sufficient to satisfy him.
Anyway, if I don't miss, it is allowed to take small parts of a text for review purposes, and I think this could be true  for photos too; I suppose that a research thread on his subject could be seen as a sort of review of it.
If someone knows more on the review right, I'm interested to know his point.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2014, 06:34:44 AM »

... in my opinion the kill markings on Glinka's plane were in three rows (the first is not visible) with 4+4+7 stars.

Hi Flavio,
15 victory stars are unlikelly, because D. Glinka scored his 15th victory on March 30th and his 16th victory on April 1st.

According to the book "Airacobras over Kuban" by V. Roman, photo session was staged in April.   Comment under one of the photos says that it was "the end of April".
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 06:38:24 AM by KL » Logged
Flavio
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« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2014, 10:48:55 AM »

15 victory stars are unlikelly, because D. Glinka scored his 15th victory on March 30th and his 16th victory on April 1st.....

That's right KL,
however in the photo are visible 11 markings only (4+7). We can guess the 1st row but the total never will be 21.
Flavio
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KL
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« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2014, 06:04:29 PM »

It's most likely exactly what we see:  11 victory stars!

Glinka scored his 11th victory on Sept 6, 1942.  Interestingly enough, Glinka shot down 3 Ju-87 Stukas on May 5, 1942!!!  3 victory stars with dots are representing those 3 Stukas...  Glinka scored his 12th victory and at the same time his first victory flying an Airacobra on March 10, 1943.

This means that the portrait was taken much earlier than the photos showing Airacobra No 21.  It is also clear that Glinka's uniform is different on his portrait photos.
IMHO, there were two photo sessions:

- first photo session (when portraits were made) with his first Airacobra staged at the beginning of March 1943, before March 10th
- second photo session with the Airacobra No 21 staged at the end of April

Contrary to the book "Airacobras over Kuban" by V. Roman,  portraits were made in March 1942, not in April and Glinka was a lieutenant, not a captain at that time.

Cheers,
KL
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 06:26:52 PM by KL » Logged
Flavio
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« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2014, 11:23:22 PM »

...This means that the portrait was taken much earlier than the photos showing Airacobra No 21....
KL

Interesting notes KL.
Look at the photo below, for sure the same plane of that with victory stars; the only things I can say is that the plane flown by Glinka with victory stars on the nose was a P-39K model with serial number 42-440x. Glinka's rank is barely visible under the sweater (I am not an expert I don't know if it correspond to a Lieutenant or Captain).

Flavio


From book "Airacobras over Kuban" by V. Roman
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KL
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« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2014, 07:38:13 AM »

Glinka's rank is barely visible under the sweater (I am not an expert I don't know if it correspond to a Lieutenant or Captain).

From book "Airacobras over Kuban" by V. Roman

I am not an expert too, but internet helps.  Cool

According to the official military regulations issued in June 1941, collar patches (which were the insignia of the officer's rank in addition to sleeve markings) for various ranks looked as follows:

- junior lieutenant - 1 square
- lieutenant - 2 squares
- senior lieutenant - 3 squares
- captain - 1 rectangle
- mayor - 2 rectangles

From:  http://istmat.info/node/26063

Regardless of the sweater, it is clear that Dmitriy Glinka was a lieutenant at the time when portraits were made. Again, contrary to the book "Airacobras over Kuban" by V. Roman.  D. Glinka was promoted to the rank of a captain, after being awarded HSU title.

New shoulder epaulettes were introduced in January 1943, first in Guards units, later in regular units.  In Ogonek photos, both brothers had new uniforms with shoulder epaulettes.  45 iap pilots received new uniforms in May 1943, at the time when regiment was withdrawn from the combat and when new P-39Ns were received.



Regards,
KL  
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 07:43:17 AM by KL » Logged
Flavio
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« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2014, 10:43:27 AM »

Thank you KL, for your reply.

This is how Glinka's collar Patches would have appeared.


Flavio
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KL
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« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2014, 07:35:06 PM »

This is how new 1943 shoulder boards (or epauletes?) of the VVS Captain looked:





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66misos
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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


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« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2014, 10:56:20 AM »

Hi,
I tried to put events and planes in one sequence.
According to the book Airacobras over Kuban by V. Roman 45 IAP started combat operations with only three P-39K with S/N: 42-440x:
42-4401 in V. Roman?s book is photo of this plane without board number and with already two victory stars,
42-4403 participated at least in the 2nd photo session,
42-4408
All other P-39K were 42-441x or higher.

March 9, 1943 - the 45 IAP started combat operations,
March 10th - his 12th victory and at the same time his first victory flying an Airacobra,
March 12th - Dimitry as Leutenant was shot down in his first Airacobra S/N: 24410,
1st photo session - Portraits of D.B.Glinka as Leutenant with P-39K S/N: 42-440x behind and with P-39 with 11 (8+3) victory stars behind are made. No board number visible.
March 30th - his 15th victory,

April 1st - his 16th victory,
April 15th - he was shot down in his second Airacobra S/N: ?, B/N: ?,
after April 21st ? 2nd photo session with his third Airacobra P-39K-1, S/N: 24403, B/N: 21. Quotation from the book Airacobras over Kuban by V. Roman: ?Interesting coincidence ? ace won his 21st victory on April 21 on the plane of board no. 21 (serial no. 42-4403). Kuban, end of April 1943.? No victory stars are visible,
April 24th ? his 1st HSU award,
End of April - 45 IAP was withdrawn from the front to be re-armed with new P-39M and N versions,

May 26 - unit returned to the front,
End of May - 3rd photo session ? Glinka brothers (D.B.Glinka already as Captian) were photographed by Ogonek reporters. Ogonek published that brothers had 33 victories at the time of visit. Cobras from Ogonek have cannon with tubular cover and at least one has black propeller blades with yellow tips. Apparently new Cobras of M and N versions. No serial number, no board number, no victory stars are visible.

I am starting to have doubts whether there were any victory stars painted P-39K "21" 24403. There is no photo confirming it, even sequence of events does not support it very much. It is mentioned only in Yakovlev's memoirs.

Regards,
    66misos
« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 11:06:40 AM by 66misos » Logged

66misos
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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


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« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2014, 03:05:57 PM »

Hi,

So, D.B.Glinka started combat operation within 45 IAP on March 9th. After 3 days, on March 12th he is shot down in P-39K ?24410?, plane is damaged and written off. He flew another P-39K ?2440x? (on photo with 8+3 victory stars) for month and on April 15th he was shot down again. He spent next days (week) in hospital. He return to fly on about April 20th or 21st in P-39K ?24403? (on photo without victory stars). After another 10 days 45 IAP is withdrawn from the front. After return he flew new P-39M or N version (on photo from Ogonek).

Quite high ?turnaround? of P-39s. Not very much time to paint victory stars regularly on them.

On the other side it shows quite high protection and probability to survive for pilot. I read that soviet pilots considered P-39 safe even after being hit and preferred forced landing rather than bale out. D.B. Glinka at least once, Sukhov twice, P-39 in Finland museum (combination of two force landed Cobras) etc.

Regards,
    66misos
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