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Author Topic: Yugoslav UT-2  (Read 8909 times)
Massimo Tessitori
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« on: February 15, 2014, 07:14:14 AM »


Have you any informations on Yugoslv UT-2 and UT-2M, please?
For example: in the last part of their service life they received Civilian-like immatricolations instead of roundels and stars. Were they still of the Yugoslav Air Force, or passed to some other organization?
Another thing: they are represented as dark grey and light blue, both because a preserved one is grey, both for analogy to Il-2 and Yak-3 of the Yugoslav Air Force. But none of the photos show evidence of light blue undersurfaces. Do you know for sure if this is right?
Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 08:19:24 AM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
KL
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« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2014, 08:35:27 AM »

Hi Massimo,
some information about Yugoslav UT-2s and UT-2Ms is available on Croatian modelling forums.  Nothing about the colours, but at least chronology:

1.  30 UT-2M were received in summer 1945
2.  25 UT-2 were received in late 1947

During 1940es these planes were used in military flying schools and operational units.  At the beginning of 1950es, UT-2s and UT-2Ms were transferred to civilian (sport) aeroclubs.

IMHO, dark gray AMT-12 is unlikely on any UT-2s or UT-2Ms.
Preserved UT-2 is silver  Smiley  It's displayed in the Technical Museum in Zagreb, Croatia, not far from you...

The plane was received by the museum from the "Zagreb Aeroclub" (sport flying club) in 1960, disassembled and put in the museum storage.  It remained stored, collecting dust, for some 50 years!  It was taken out of the storage and restored few years ago, around 2010 IIRC.  Finally, the restored plane was then returned to the storage...



Check here:
http://www.tehnicki-muzej.hr/hr/price/konzervacija-restauracija-aviona-jakovljev-ut-2,8.html?y=2011
http://www.maketarstvo.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1160&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 08:23:47 AM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2014, 05:54:12 PM »

Hi Konstantin (sorry I wrote Tiso at first),
thank you for the informations and the links. Excellent for the page too.
I see that the restored plane is painted silver. Perhaps it was so whem it was preserved in depot too.
In general historic photos don't seem to show silver. Can be dark or medium color, as Il-2s.
From the Croatian forum:
Quote
... solve the issue of the original color, green or gray above and light green below.
Srecko Bradic, that is a professional illustrator and has 3 sites on planes, is convinced that those planes were dark grey.
About light green: I suppose it is  light blue yellowish for the ageing, as the chip of A-28m of Nakrasok Alboom; the Il-2 in Belgrad shows a turquoise color too.
Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 08:21:10 AM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2014, 06:05:21 PM »

Hi,
on the photos of restoration, there are traces of light blue, dark grey and olive green under the old silver or grey  layer. About the olive, it is not covered by other colors so I suppose it was inside.

http://www.tehnicki-muzej.hr/hr/price/konzervacija-restauracija-aviona-jakovljev-ut-2,8.html?y=2011

Please ook especially at the second photo.

Regards
Massimo
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xan
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« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2014, 12:50:06 AM »

Hi mister K,
you will interest Pascal a lot, he is building one in integral scratch!
Xan
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2014, 08:26:37 AM »

Hi,
I've reordered the topic, preserving the informations and deleting duplications. Sorry, at first I answered to Tiso instead of KL.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2014, 09:05:13 AM »

Hi Massimo,
the thread makes sense now.

I see that the restored plane is painted silver. Perhaps it was so whem it was preserved in depot too.
In general historic photos don't seem to show silver. Can be dark or medium color, as Il-2s.

Reminds me on Pilawskii's principles:  "No photographic evidence, it didn't exist" or "If I haven't seen it on photos, it didn't exist!"

Zagreb UT-2 has been restored to the colour scheme that it sported at the time when it was received by the museum in 1960.  So, the colour scheme is historicaly correct.  There is absolutelly no doubt that the plane was repainted in silver sometimes during it civilian service between 1952 and 1960.
Museum's page says that another, military colour scheme has been revailed under the silver paint during the restorations.  From restoration photos it looks that this military scheme consisted of:

- gray-blue AMT-11 on upper surfaces
- light blue AMT-7 on undersides    

This scheme would be the same as the scheme that can be seen on Belgrade Il-2 and Yak-3.

Regards,
KL
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 09:07:17 AM by KL » Logged
KL
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« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2014, 09:16:52 AM »

on the photos of restoration, there are traces of light blue, dark grey and olive green under the old silver or grey  layer. About the olive, it is not covered by other colors so I suppose it was inside.
Please ook especially at the second photo.



panel that looks olive green is actually protected with brown zinc-chromate primer ALG-1.  Yes, this colour would be visible inside the plane only.

Regards,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2014, 04:32:37 PM »

Hi Konstantin
Quote
Reminds me on Pilawskii's principles:  "No photographic evidence, it didn't exist" or "If I haven't seen it on photos, it didn't exist!"
Please avoid to attribute to me or to other persons, even if not beloved, such silly phrases.
I've written:
Quote
In general historic photos don't seem to show silver. Can be dark or medium color, as Il-2s.
You could also look for historic photos that seems to show silver Yugoslavian UT-2s, if you find them. It will be interesting anyway.
About the military scheme under the civilian one, it confirms expectations.
Now, photos of both UT-2 and Il-2 of Yugoslav Air Force seem to show two types of uniform uppersurface finish: a medium grey similar to AMT-11  or, on other planes,  a darker shade, often supposed to be a grey similar to AMT-12 (but it's not impossible that it was dark green, that was used in a disruptive camo with medium grey for some types).
It would be interesting to know if, on other wrecks in the former Yugoslav depots, there are traces of dark grey or dark green uniform finishes.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2014, 10:52:05 PM »

Quote
Reminds me on Pilawskii's principles:  "No photographic evidence, it didn't exist" or "If I haven't seen it on photos, it didn't exist!"
Please avoid to attribute to me or to other persons, even if not beloved, such silly phrases.

From the ?Soviet Air Force Fighter Colours 1941 - 1945?, by E. Pilawskii, about the camouflage schemes introduced in October 1944:

?In short, there are simply no photographs to show that these recommendations were ever put into use.
?
If these ?last minute? recommendations ever did circulate to the aviation factories, they must have gone little further than the waste basket.?


How I understand this, author hasn?t seen photographs which would confirm use of these ?recommendations? so he doubts that ?recommendations? have ever been circulated to the factories and even if they were, factories ignored them.

In short, author makes conclusions based solely on the lack of photographic evidence.  At the same time, author diminishes importance of documents preserved in archives.
Finally, author opposes/negates previously published information about this order by Vahlamov and Orlov (who worked in archives and from whom Pilawskii actually copied information).  Vahlamov and Orlov said that these schemes have been applied less than others, because the war ended.  Pilawskii thinks that schemes haven?t been used at all because there is no photographs.

IMHO, Pilawskii?s book is wrong primarily because his ?research? was based solely on the interpretation of colours from b/w photos.

Now, photos of both UT-2 and Il-2 of Yugoslav Air Force seem to show two types of uniform uppersurface finish: a medium grey similar to AMT-11 or, on other planes, a darker shade, often supposed to be a grey similar to AMT-12

Your conclusion is based solely on photos and it is wrong.  Ask yourself why would Yugoslavs paint their planes in a variety of colours?  Just for fun?  To make their Air Force more colourfull?  For the sake of future modelers and profile artists?

There was only one scheme ? gray-blue for upper surfaces and light blue for undersides.

Regards,
KL
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 11:05:32 PM by KL » Logged
warhawk
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« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2014, 10:10:00 AM »

IMHO, when dealing with Yugoslav aircraft colors of the immediate post-war period, one has to take the following two things in the account:

1) Most planes with uniform gray uppersides were painted in the (in)famous, so-called "Partisan grey" (Partizanska siva), made simply by mixing 50% black and 50% white!
     This also must be left as an option, as Bf-109, Yak-3, and Il-2 at Belgrade museum are (supposed) to be painted in this color
     http://www.maketarstvo.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9655&sid=713bae4bd23f10b6da625f45d71c236c
2) Colors on the Belgrade museum aircraft (in this case Il-2 and Yak-3) were restored with little consideration for actual paints used in the 50-ties. They are close, but not the exact shades present on the original aircraft,    
    and thus represent neither Soviet, nor Yugoslav authentic shades accurately.

Regards,
Aleksandar
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2014, 04:11:25 PM »

Quote
IMHO, when dealing with Yugoslav aircraft colors of the immediate post-war period, one has to take the following two things in the account:

1) Most planes with uniform gray uppersides were painted in the (in)famous, so-called "Partisan grey" (Partizanska siva), made simply by mixing 50% black and 50% white!
     This also must be left as an option, as Bf-109, Yak-3, and Il-2 at Belgrade museum are (supposed) to be painted in this color
     http://www.maketarstvo.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9655&sid=713bae4bd23f10b6da625f45d71c236c
2) Colors on the Belgrade museum aircraft (in this case Il-2 and Yak-3) were restored with little consideration for actual paints used in the 50-ties. They are close, but not the exact shades present on the original aircraft,   
    and thus represent neither Soviet, nor Yugoslav authentic shades accurately.

Hi Warhawk,
this information is interesting and new in this topic. Thank you very much. This could explain the variability of the color: any casual change in proportions and thinning of white and black paints can led to a wide variation in darkness. If one mixes two close colors, the resulting one has to be between them. If colors are very different... well, again the result has to be between them, but with a wider variability.
Anyway, I would be surprised if an 'official' grey wasn't produced some years later, with the recostruction of the industries. I'll check the topic you have linked.
Another question:
on many photos, one can see that sometimes blue and red contrast strongly with grey, other times they didn't. It is clear that there are two shades of blue and two of red. But often the flag on the tail seems without the red and blue parts, only the white strip and the star with yellow outline, as on this photo that is not the only one:



Well, the question is: are we sure that red and blue stripes are always there when they are not visible, or there is a simplified version of the tail flag without them?

Hi Konstantin,
Quote
From the ?Soviet Air Force Fighter Colours 1941 - 1945?, by E. Pilawskii, about the camouflage schemes introduced in October 1944:
?In short, there are simply no photographs to show that these recommendations were ever put into use.
?If these ?last minute? recommendations ever did circulate to the aviation factories, they must have gone little further than the waste basket.?

How I understand this, author hasn?t seen photographs which would confirm use of these ?recommendations? so he doubts that ?recommendations? have ever been circulated to the factories and even if they were, factories ignored them.
In short, author makes conclusions based solely on the lack of photographic evidence.  At the same time, author diminishes importance of documents preserved in archives.
Finally, author opposes/negates previously published information about this order by Vahlamov and Orlov (who worked in archives and from whom Pilawskii actually copied information).  Vahlamov and Orlov said that these schemes have been applied less than others, because the war ended.  Pilawskii thinks that schemes haven?t been used at all because there is no photographs.
IMHO, Pilawskii?s book is wrong primarily because his ?research? was based solely on the interpretation of colours from b/w photos.

The argument could be interesting, but requires a new topic. I'll open it only if there are more informations than the few that I've already collected here  http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/1945-50-oldtypes/1945-50-oldtypes.html

Quote
Your conclusion is based solely on photos and it is wrong.  Ask yourself why would Yugoslavs paint their planes in a variety of colours?  Just for fun?  To make their Air Force more colourfull?  For the sake of future modelers and profile artists?
There was only one scheme ? gray-blue for upper surfaces and light blue for undersides.

I was to ask if you have any 'official documents' to prove this assertion, but now I fear that your 'truth' has already been obsolete.

Anyway, you are disapproving EP because he considers the lack of photos as a prove. but when you write
Quote
Ask yourself why would Yugoslavs paint their planes in a variety of colours?
you consider the lack of a proven answer as a proof that this was false despite photographic evidence. This looks not better in any way.

Regards
Massimo






 
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KL
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« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2014, 07:02:07 PM »

I was to ask if you have any 'official documents' to prove this assertion...

Yes I rely on "official documents", but you are asking too much!.
You understand copyrights on photos - why would anybody share photos for free if those photos were bought on eBay for 10s or 100s of $?  Why would anybody allow publishing of personal photos in books for free if author and publisher make money?  The same with my sources - why would I tell everything? I hope you understand this.

1) Most planes with uniform gray uppersides were painted in the (in)famous, so-called "Partisan grey" (Partizanska siva), made simply by mixing 50% black and 50% white!
2) Colors on the Belgrade museum aircraft (in this case Il-2 and Yak-3) were restored with little consideration for actual paints used in the 50-ties. They are close, but not the exact shades present on the original aircraft, and thus represent neither Soviet, nor Yugoslav authentic shades accurately.

Hi Aleksandar,
The key sentence in the Croatian forum page that you refer to is:
Quote
Mo?emo biti subjektivni u svakom zaključivanju, pa tako i ja.

I can only add following:

1)  In addition to black and white paint, Yugoslav Partisans must have had at least red and blue to paint their red stars and flags.  I mean, they could mix any colour, not only medium gray?  IMHO, ?Partizanska siva? is a recent internet myth.

2)  AMT paints were produced in postwar Yugoslavia.  This has been confirmed by the  ?official documents?

3)  Il-2, Yak-3, Me-109, ?213? in Belgrade Museum are supposed to represent postwar ?Golubije siva? colour.  I?ll leave to you to figure out what paint is behind this name.

Regards,
KL  
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 02:04:25 AM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2014, 07:15:01 AM »

Hi Konstantin,
Quote
Yes I rely on "official documents", but you are asking too much!.
You understand copyrights on photos - why would anybody share photos for free if those photos were bought on eBay for 10s or 100s of $?  Why would anybody allow publishing of personal photos in books for free if author and publisher make money?  The same with my sources - why would I tell everything? I hope you understand this.
I remember another author that vaunted a lot of sources that he didn't exhibit. You called him 'Munchhausen'.
Anyway it is possible to take into account 'official documents' only if they are known. I don't doubt that there are papers in former Yugoslavian archives that allow to understand how planes should have been painted, but it is uncorrect to emphasize 'official documents instead of photos interpretation' if they aren't known.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2014, 08:41:48 AM »

Comparing me with Munchhausen! Nice...  Grin

As per the colours of postwar Yugoslav planes, it's up to you to accept or discard information I have posted.

Regards,
KL
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 08:51:33 AM by KL » Logged
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