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Author Topic: 1927 1937 undersurfaces blue paint (inportant new infos)  (Read 12722 times)
xan
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« on: April 02, 2014, 05:57:50 PM »

Hi!

I'm going o with my I-15 model.
I remember you this plane arrives in Spain in november of 1936.
So its colors are the 1927 / 1937 colours.

Massimo, in Camouflage colors for Soviet planes before 1937

you present this colour for undersurfaces paint:
at the side , you put Akan 371 reference.
Has Akan change his paint reference system, I can't find 370 reference anywhere...

Do you stilll think that it's this type of blue?

If it is so, it' will be very closed to gunze H-67 color:



at this moment, here is what I done, but it's to much flashy, to close to AII blue isn't it?



Xan



« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 02:30:57 PM by xan » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2014, 07:46:53 PM »

Hi,
I think that the color is acceptable in absence of better references. Some of the available exhibits could have become yellowish, as the Po-2 in Finnish museum whose color is close to British ski nowadays, but probably was blue in the '30s. Besides at least one of the blues in the piece of the Spanish I-16 is close enough to this shade, no matter if its origin was Spanish or Soviet.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2014, 08:55:40 PM »

Hi Xan
The most relevant piece is the following Spanish I-16 Type 10 fragment



Soviet paint is probably  Huh the darker light blue, Spanish re-painting is the lighter "sky" blue.  Neither of the two colours can be described as "gray-blue".
HTH,
KL
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 09:08:26 PM by KL » Logged
xan
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« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2014, 09:28:48 PM »

Thank you to both of you.

So Massimo, you think Akan colour could be a good choise and konstantin you don't...  Cry

The most relevant piece is the following Spanish I-16 Type 10 fragment
Soviet paint is probably  Huh the darker light blue, Spanish re-painting is the lighter "sky" blue.  Neither of the two colours can be described as "gray-blue".

about this piece of I-16 type 10.
If I'm not wrong Konstantin, the dark blue cannot be a soviet blue...
I say that because of argument I learn in this forum:

When the I-16 type 10 was done 1927/37 blue was no more used and aII blue wasn't used yet isn't it. At this time rusian I-16 were paint in AII aluminium.
I'm wrong?

Is the only thing we con say is that we don't know about 1937 russian blue color?

Xan
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KL
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« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2014, 10:45:14 PM »

about this piece of I-16 type 10.
If I'm not wrong Konstantin, the dark blue cannot be a soviet blue...
I say that because of argument I learn in this forum:
When the I-16 type 10 was done 1927/37 blue was no more used and aII blue wasn't used yet isn't it. At this time rusian I-16 were paint in AII aluminium.

Think of I-16 Type 10 as an export model painted according to the "old" rules.  AII Aluminium was used sporadically on I-16 undersides, more typical for period 1938-40 was light gray.  Montoya says that he has never seen gray or silver on I-16 wrecks - I believe him  Cheesy.

Is the only thing we con say is that we don't know about 1937 russian blue color?

We are 100% positive that it wasn't "gray-blue" and that it was "Light Blue".  If you don't like blue on that I-16 fragment, feel free to make it lighter, but not grayish.  Wink
HTH,
KL  
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 10:49:32 PM by KL » Logged
xan
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« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2014, 10:52:45 PM »

Allright mister K,
thanks a lot , and thanks Massimo too

Xan
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2014, 10:11:54 AM »

Hi,
it is plausible that the darker blue, perhaps similar to AMT-7, was a Soviet blue of the '30s; in facts this color appeared sensibly darker than AE-9 when the planes were photographed side by side.
This is a conjecture based on this piece only and on some bw photos. Sorry to be not able to write anything more sure, only that none will ever prove you're wrong.
Regards
Massimo
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AC26
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« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2014, 10:40:04 AM »

Think of I-16 Type 10 as an export model painted according to the "old" rules.  AII Aluminium was used sporadically on I-16 undersides, more typical for period 1938-40 was light gray.  Montoya says that he has never seen gray or silver on I-16 wrecks - I believe him  Cheesy.
Hi Konstantin!

In a Winter War I-16 wreck was silver undersides, dark green upper surfaces and black engine covers with number 5201517. Was this a Type 5 or a Type 10? It was shot down at M?rk?j?rvi and piloted by lieutenant Ivan Istshenko of 3. escadrille from 145 IAP. (Source: Valtonen book "Hylkyretki? Pohjolaan").

Same book giverssilver underside also for an I-15bis and there exists also fragments of an R-5 with silver/dark green colours.

Cheers,

AaCee
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2014, 05:10:28 PM »

Hi, there is a photo of a fragment of an I-16 wing with red star over silver, photos and movies showing a neat difference between the shade of metallic parts (grey) and the fabric surfaces; in some cases, silver shining is visible on them. Now, I don't exclude that light grey could have been utilized on fabric surfaces of I-16s, but is there documentation about this?
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2014, 06:08:27 PM »

This is a conjecture based on this piece only and on some bw photos. Sorry to be not able to write anything more sure, only that none will ever prove you're wrong.

There are other evidences in addition to Montoya's I-16 fragments, so you can use "light blue" with confidence.  I hope you are inquiring about this because you want your model to be as authentic as possible, not to prove who is right and who is wrong.
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xan
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« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2014, 06:26:39 PM »

Who was Montoya?
a republican pilote?
Xan
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KL
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« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2014, 07:07:51 PM »

In a Winter War I-16 wreck was silver undersides, dark green upper surfaces and black engine covers with number 5201517. Was this a Type 5 or a Type 10? It was shot down at M?rk?j?rvi and piloted by lieutenant Ivan Istshenko of 3. escadrille from 145 IAP. (Source: Valtonen book "Hylkyretki? Pohjolaan").

Something is wrong with that number - if plane was made by Zavod 21 it should be 5 (for Type), 21 (for Zavod), 517 (517th plane of Type 5).  Could be a part number, not a serial number...

Engine cowlings were factory painted in black in 1935-36.  First I-16 that arrived in Spain in fall of 1936 had black cowlings. Later, 1937-38 I-16s had green/light blue cowlings.
Cowlings were painted in black in the field too; that was probably the case with the plane you are mentioning.

Same book giverssilver underside also for an I-15bis and there exists also fragments of an R-5 with silver/dark green colours.

I-15bis typically had wing undersides factory painted in silver.  R-5 was most likely an overhauled plane or over-painted plane.  
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KL
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« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2014, 07:28:10 PM »

Who was Montoya?
a republican pilote?
Xan

Archaeologist! He found and still owns that I-16 fragment.
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2014, 06:50:57 AM »

Hi,
Quote
There are other evidences in addition to Montoya's I-16 fragments, so you can use "light blue" with confidence.
I would like to see what ones.
For what I remember, Montoya wrote that there are two paints on that piece: a greenish underlying one, likely the Russian color, and a light blue, likely Spanish (at least on his interpretation).
Now, I think to see three colors, including a darker blue. If this is underlying, it is certainly a Soviet color. But I could be wrong.
At this point, the only effective thing to do is to contact Montoya.
Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 02:33:48 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
AC26
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« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2014, 10:41:37 PM »

Plenty of thanks, Konstantin!

In a Winter War I-16 wreck was silver undersides, dark green upper surfaces and black engine covers with number 5201517. Was this a Type 5 or a Type 10? It was shot down at M?rk?j?rvi and piloted by lieutenant Ivan Istshenko of 3. escadrille from 145 IAP. (Source: Valtonen book "Hylkyretki? Pohjolaan").

Something is wrong with that number - if plane was made by Zavod 21 it should be 5 (for Type), 21 (for Zavod), 517 (517th plane of Type 5).  Could be a part number, not a serial number...
My mistake: Should read 5210517.

Engine cowlings were factory painted in black in 1935-36.  First I-16 that arrived in Spain in fall of 1936 had black cowlings. Later, 1937-38 I-16s had green/light blue cowlings.
Cowlings were painted in black in the field too; that was probably the case with the plane you are mentioning.
Same book giverssilver underside also for an I-15bis and there exists also fragments of an R-5 with silver/dark green colours.

I-15bis typically had wing undersides factory painted in silver.  R-5 was most likely an overhauled plane or over-painted plane.  
Same book about the I-15bis. Force landed at Suomussalmi in the beginning of December 1939. Green top, silver lower fabric and plywood parts, light grey metal parts and at least upper wing metal hatches black. Stars with 7mm black border. C/n 5275.

R-5 undersurface (tailplane parts) didn't have any other colour than silver.

Cheers,

AaCee
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