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Author Topic: 1927 1937 undersurfaces blue paint (inportant new infos)  (Read 12747 times)
KL
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« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2014, 11:55:59 PM »

Hi AC26,

5210517 is OK  Smiley

5 = Type 5
21 = Zavod 21
0517 = 1516th plane of Type 5

0 has interesting meaning.  Numbers were assigned continuously from 1 to 999, and after 521999 they started to add "0" before the plane number.  This means that 521517 was the 517th plane and 5210517 was the 1516th plane of Type 5.

HTH,
KL
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KL
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« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2014, 01:49:16 AM »

Hi AC26,
a bit more that can be drawn from your serial number.
Type 5 production by Zavod 21 by year was:

1936 - 861 planes made
1937 - 1665 planes
1938 - 169 planes

1516th plane was made in mid 1937. At the time of the Winter War it was about 2.5 years old and it may have been overhauled or repainted.

HTH,
KL
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xan
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« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2014, 02:30:30 PM »

Hello,
until today, according to this piece of I-16 KL shows me,



I thought the underside blue between 1927 and 1937 could be a quite dark blue, andn so did I paint my I-15 and the I-16 type 5 I'm doing:





Today, a russian friend of mine , Alex Gorodnichev, who often take part in my french modeler forum "master194", gave ue today very important elements.
I wrote as I thought, that ther was no rest of plane of that period who shows how could the blue color been.

Well, I was wrong.

in 1933 USSR did try with stratosferic balloons to reach the world record of altitude...







the original baloon is in the museum of aviation in Monino Rusia, but it have been repaint without any care, is the star show it...



Fout were builted. Between them , one , the fourth never flew and was used for propaganda in expositions...
He was finally offered to the FAI (international aeronautic federation) and ended in the "mus?e de l'aviation et de l'espace" of Paris....

Why told you all that?
Because as it's rotten in the sphere, it was build in 1933 in the 28 factory, the same where were builted the policarpov planes (R-1, R-5 and first I-16 type 5)

So this pale blue was surely the same it was used on metallic plane pieces....

well, here are the pics:

the ballon was first in the reserve:



here are better pics:





The ballon stands now in the space hall in the Bourget museum:



the hall is quite dark , so the blue seems deeper, I think the pics above are better...

it seems to me an important discover Alex did, what do you think ?

Xan
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2014, 04:31:32 PM »

Hi Xan,
yes, really interesting. I suppose that someone of your French forum can easily go to Bourget some day and compare the sphere with commercial blue chips to give a match.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2014, 05:31:56 PM »

Small world!!!  I have recently exchanged several emails with Gorodnichev regarding the Bourget Stratostat gondola and everything I wrote becomes public...   Angry

Today, a russian friend of mine , Alex Gorodnichev, who often take part in my french modeler forum "master194", gave ue today very important elements....  
it seems to me an important discover Alex did, what do you think ?

It wasn't his discovery, it was mine - ask him or ask the museum  Grin

Anyway, Bourget Stratostat gondola is almost certainly still painted in original 1933 light blue oil paint.  It's most likely the largest preserved piece of original early 1930es Soviet aviation paint.

Xan, if I remember correctly, the question was about the supposed light blue-gray that was used on planes in 1930es according to AKAN.  After seeing Bourget Stratostat gondola couple of years ago, I have started (in my mind...  Wink) to question the existence of light blue-gray undersides on VVS planes.

Montoya's relics are also relevant, at least for SCW I-16s...  These relics also show light blue paint, not "light blue-gray".  IMHO, the light blue on your I-15 and I-16 is close enough to light blue as seen on Bourget Stratostat gondola and on Montoyas I-16 relics.  It can't be confused with later AMT-7 and it isn't "light blue-gray" - it is what I would consider as "accurate".

Regards,
KL          

« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 05:40:42 PM by KL » Logged
xan
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« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2014, 07:01:57 PM »

It wasn't his discovery, it was mine - ask him or ask the museum  Grin
Sorry Konstantin!
Alex didn't told me it was his discovery, I put that just to let clear it wasn't mine, OK ?
Anyway it's a great step in our VVS colors investigations...
About the SCW colors I steel think there were no specific  spanish color , and I think they used VVS paints, even when they repeinted the planes...
I will try to find approaching light blue, such as RLM 65 or RLM 76

Xan
 
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 07:10:40 PM by xan » Logged

KL
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« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2014, 10:43:43 PM »

Alex didn't told me it was his discovery, I put that just to let clear it wasn't mine, OK ?
Anyway it's a great step in our VVS colors investigations...

It's OK!!!  Smiley
Alex is a great guy, extremely knowledgeable and helpful.

About the SCW colors I still think there were no specific  Spanish colors, and I think they used VVS paints, even when they repeinted the planes...

There is a relevant period document which indicates that aviation paints were produced by a Republican factory during the SCW...  What colours; Spanish, Soviet or French - nobody knows!!!

KL   
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2014, 06:57:13 AM »

All this is interesting. Here is a chip of postwar A-28g. I think it is something similar.

Regards
Massimo
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xan
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« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2014, 02:51:04 PM »

I find it very dark...
I triied between germean RLM who are quite light and greyish;
my favorite is RLM 65 (gunze H67)





Xan
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xan
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« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2014, 03:50:40 PM »

here is the first result:




Xan
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KL
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« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2014, 05:53:44 PM »

I triied between germean RLM who are quite light and greyish;
my favorite is RLM 65 (gunze H67)

Hmmmmm???   Huh
IMHO, the Stratostat gondola is light blue, not grayish blue!!!
Xan, you are maybe confusing layers of dust and grime with its original colour?

KL 
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xan
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« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2014, 09:09:41 AM »

Maybe greyish is not the right word but RLM seems to me the closest color to what I see dispate the dust..
Xan
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righidan
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« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2014, 06:54:22 PM »

Dear friends,
   I recently visited the Mus?e de l'Air et de l'Espace at  Paris-Le Bourget.
   One of the reasons of the visit was to examine the Russian 1933 stratospheric gondola, but I have no good news.
   Before going, I shortly corresponded with Mr. Laurent RABIER, Responsable du d?partement Aviation Conservation, whom I thank, and he stated literally: ?Measuring the colors of the Russian gondola does not look that appealing because this artefact was repainted by the Museum decades ago, at least once. So in my view there is no original color on the upper layer of paint.?
   Of course during my visit I went to see the gondola and all what I found confirms the information of Mr. Rabier.
   In several points the last coat of color has chipped, and you can clearly see that, under the red star, there is painted another, larger star.
 
   Under the chipped paint you can sometime see what seems natural metal, and in different points some sort of yellowish grey, but unluckily, the artefact is suspended from the ceiling, it is close to the visitor, but not close enough to measure the colors with a colorimeter or color swatches.

   The interior of the gondola is hardly visible with the naked eye, but using the flash of my camera you can see that the interior is painted in a color that reminds me of a zinc chromate based protective paint, which could have sense.

   So, while the gondola may have been painted in a pale blue used also to paint the Polikarpovs, we will be able to know it only if and when the gondola will be restored and studied.
   Considering the huge amount of aero ? astro ? nautical metal that they have at Le Bourget, I do not believe that this is one of their priorities.
   However, trying to add something useful about the under surfaces blue paint I promise that I will measure the pale blue colors of mister Akan, and post the results.
   Best regards
Daniele

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Daniele
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2015, 06:53:54 AM »

Hi Daniele,
I've seen your important post just now. Thank you for the warning.
For what I know, grey-green is widely utilized on Soviet/Russian space ships, so I wonder if there is relation with the greyish paint we see under the chipping.
Regards
Massimo
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xan
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« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2015, 02:57:06 PM »

Hi Daniel,
you didn't find any trace of another blue?
beeing quite optimist, we can think they respected the color when they painted it....

Xan
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