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1936/1940 VVS colors and the I-16
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Author Topic: 1936/1940 VVS colors and the I-16  (Read 7506 times)
xan
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« on: May 15, 2014, 05:03:31 PM »

Hello,
I'm preparing the I-16 project, so I would like to continue the discussion Massimo, Konstantin and I we started on the I-15's colors post...

first of all, wich terminology do you propose do call the first dark green, the second olive green and the first light blue ?

second, I would like us to try to find elements to determinate the date change of colour...

third we could compare those date with the different I-16 type of production years to determinate how was logically paint each type, or at least try to elaborate a logical frame...

Massimo, you say
in 1938, AII green was introduced on Soviet planes (mixed construction).
what are the element you have to determinate this period?

there are some indications that the change occurred in 1940.
What are the indication you have who made you change your opinion ?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 05:11:27 PM by xan » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2014, 08:06:00 PM »

Hi,
Quote
what are the element you have to determinate this period?
it was a translation from an article of Orlov made by Konstantin.
Quote
there are some indications that the change occurred in 1940
could be, I've often thought that I-15bis looks to have a darker green than I-153.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2014, 08:37:14 PM »

Quote
what are the element you have to determinate this period?
it was a translation from an article of Orlov made by Konstantin.

could be, although I think Orlov has 1937 for the introduction of AII Z.  Other authors have different years - Averin has 1939. 

could be, I've often thought that I-15bis looks to have a darker green than I-153.

I've often thought that Vesivehmaa MiG-3 is actually 4BO colour and it's definitively lighter than last I-153s made in 1940.

Regards,
KL
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xan
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« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2014, 07:31:20 PM »

What says Orlov is a serious argument, but what does he says, 1938, or 1939?
Does he arguement his affirmation?
Is he alive? Is there a way to contact him?
Who is Averin? How does he argue the 1939 year? Same question, is it possible to contact him?
Xan
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 09:50:05 PM by xan » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2014, 06:40:56 AM »

Hi Xan,
for what I know, Orlov is alive, or at least he was a pair of years ago. Sometimes he writes on the forum Scalemodels.ru, or at least he did this at the time of EP. He doesn't read English. He is, or was, in contact with Mr. Akanihin. I never managed to obtain a contact with him.
Regards
Massimo
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xan
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« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2014, 09:40:34 AM »

Hi Massimo,
a russian friend of mine knows akhanine, I willl try to have a contact...
In the Orlov's book I have, the subject si 1941 / 1945, so he logically starts from decree of May 25th...

Do you have more elements? Konstantin?

For Hornat in his book, colors of the falcons:


he speaks later about the introduction of winter camouflage with the 1940 january 31 VVS order, and next:

So if I have well undestood, for Hornat , the change of green (3B to  A-19f for metal parts) only happens with the decree n?220ss of 1940 May 23rd....
He says , and it seems important to me, that old painted aircraft were not repeinted.
So if we succed to determinate the passage of 3B/... to A-19f/AII green, we will have the possibility to determinate a rational way of paint the different I-16 type according to when were they produce...



Xan
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2014, 06:41:27 PM »

Hi Xan,
there are scans of the articles published on M-Hobby on Scalemodels.ru. They include articles about planes of the '30s. I suppose you already know the page. They are the main source; Hornat is a second choice, because the most of his work is an adaptation from Orlov, but some important colors as AII green are missing.
For tanks, 3B was replaced with 4B around 1940, so it's possible that the passage from dark to lighter green in VVS was more or less contemporary.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2014, 08:10:19 PM »

Difference is very subtle...

some old T-26 were also lighter


on following images T-34 should be painted in lighter 4BO






First from left is old BT-7, third is 1940 T-34, fourth is 1941 T-34 (looks painted in old 3B !!!)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 08:35:08 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2014, 09:35:59 PM »

Interesting... and what is the second tank of the last photo? A prototype of T-34?
Some of the T-26s of the first image could have disruptive camouflage.
Regards
Massimo
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xan
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« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2014, 08:51:13 PM »

there are scans of the articles published on M-Hobby on Scalemodels.ru. They include articles about planes of the '30s. I suppose you already know the page.
No I don't, can you give me the link please?
Xan
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2014, 09:55:29 PM »

Here it is:
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_954.html
Regards
Massimo
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xan
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« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2014, 11:22:43 PM »

A russian friend of mine is translating me all the article, and it seems very very interesting.
Xan
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KL
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« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2014, 01:03:30 AM »

I tried to find photos of old I-16s Type 5 next to new I-16s or MiG-3s hoping to see the difference.  It's inconclusive...
Riga airfield:











Shaulai airfield:

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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2014, 03:19:31 PM »

Hi,
Some I-16s look silvery on their lower part of the rear fuselage, some don't. Planes 4 and 5 of the last photo give a different impression.
On the page of the alboom, there is a chip of fabric of a Rata with the green preserved. Perhaps the other pieces show chips of AE-9. It would be good to see the real items.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2014, 06:41:14 PM »

Hi,
I was actually looking for two shades of green - wasn't, this thread about the old, darker "protective green" and the new, lighter "olive green"?

Since you have mention undersides, IMHO both solid light gray and the combination light gray metal + silver fabric were possible on I-16s during the period 1938 to 1940.  Solid light gray is mentioned in manuals and there is at least one wreck painted that way. Combination light gray + silver is (sometimes) clearly seen on photos ("photographic evidence").

Regards,
KL  
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 06:44:05 PM by KL » Logged
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