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Author Topic: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China (ended)  (Read 15665 times)
66misos
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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


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« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2014, 06:42:48 PM »

Hi Xan,
so beautifull! As usuall with your kits.
Regards,
   66misos
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learstang
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« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2014, 07:22:04 PM »

Beautiful Ishak, Xan!

Regards,

Jason
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KL
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« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2014, 03:20:34 AM »

Beautiful model Xan, but markings and association with Kozachenko are questionable...  Sad

First I-16s Type 10 were definitively sent to Spain in spring 1938.  There was a lot of problems with wing strength at that time, production was delayed so most of Type 10s that were made by summer 1938 ended in Spain.  VVS regiments started to receive Type 10 only in summer 1938.  IMHO, Type 10 could not reach China before autumn 1938.

Kozachenko was a member of the first group of volunteers and he left China in May 1938 - so he could fly I-16sType 5s only....

Otherwise very convincing model.

Cheers,
KL   
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2014, 08:50:23 AM »

Hi Xan,
it is a beautiful model and presentation work.
I would just check the side door, it looks glued not strictly parallel to its hinge line.
Regards
Massimo
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Troy Smith
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« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2014, 04:22:44 PM »

Great model Xan

the paint chipping is especially well done.

Seems strange that there is a not an available Type 5 kit, I recently got an Airwawaves conversion via Britmodeller, which looks good but is no longer made, and was expensive when it was, and was intended for the Hobbycraft/Academy too so no idea if it would fit Eduard or Ark kits.

Did Ark models not plan to do a Type5?

cheers
T
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KL
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« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2014, 01:06:41 AM »


Seems strange that there is a not an available Type 5 kit...


Type 5 would be more representative as a Chinese I-16 and it would be much better documented.  CAF Type 10 photos are extremely rare (I could find only 1 (one!) photo) and it looks that I-16 Type 10 may have been a "rare bird" in Chinese Nationalist Air Force - regardless of numerous profiles and decals.

IMHO, the following book gives most reliable chronology and numbers:



- by spring 1938 94 I-16s were delivered to China.  Those have to be Type 5 (see my previous post)
- in summer 1938 100 ShKAS machine guns were delivered to upgrade Type 5s to Type 10
- in summer 1939 additional 30 I-16s were delivered to China (according to veterans 20 Type 10 and 10 cannon armed Type 17)
- no deliveries in 1940
- 65 I-16s delivered in first half of 1941.  Those were supposed to be different than previous (Chinese designation E-16-3, probably with M-62 engines).  IMHO, it is questionable if these 65 planes were delivered in reality... (no photos of Chinese I-16 M-62...  Wink )

So, CAF probably had 20-30 I-16 Type 10 starting from summer 1939 - or just one squadron!  This is one I-16 Type 10



All those profiles of I-16 Type 10 with numbers 69, 70 and 71 and their association with Kozachenko are fiction...  Grin

HTH,
KL


 
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xan
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« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2014, 01:02:50 PM »

Well, well...

According to this pictures type 10 were delivered fist:



Konstantin I think I allways present 70 code as very very questionnable, and I never trust in profils.
as you know , there is a big lake of russian I-16 picture.
The only one who is said to show russian squadron is this one (type 5)



Maslov, in his paper about the chinese I-16 in Air magazine n?4, explains that chinese I-16 use to were 4 numbers code, the first two were the squadron number (chungtui) and the last two the plane number.
the Soviets squadron always according to Maslov only were two number code.



As you know, I built two I-16 at the same time: a type 5 and a type10.

here is the type 5 I will present you when the diorama will be ended:



My principal intention was to show the peint evolution between 1937 and 1939 (AIIz aparition etc...)
second, I found interesting show two soviet implications in war between the patriotic war.
I did yet an I-15bis in kalkhin gol war, so I wanted to explored the first part of Japanese and Chinese war.
I wanted to represent a russian piot to talk about Staline different attitude before Barbarossa.
(I'm quite sure that in occident we don't discern the importance of the danger represented by Japan for Stalin; it explains, in my opinion, a lot of thinks about Stalin attitude toward Hitler in 1939...

So I knew, and I said the decoration was not sure at all; but honestly, it represents, my opinion, how could look like a russian I-16 in Chine between 1938 and 1939...

Konstantin I open this topic in May, I find it's quite a pity that you give me your opinion, just now, when the work is ended, we could have think together another way to represent a russian pilot in China...

Thanks to all for your messages!

Xan


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KL
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« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2014, 09:15:59 PM »

According to this pictures type 10 were delivered fist:



Type 10 couldn't have been delivered first:  First I-16s appeared in air combats over China in November 1937.  First series Type 10s were made in February 1938 and arrived in Spain in March 1938.  Interesting, but numbers and time of deliveries are OK in the text on that drawing...  So, if you replace "Type 10" with "Type 5" and vice versa, it gives you correct chronology:  over 90 Type 5 in 1937/38 and 30 Type 10 in 1939.

The only one who is said to show russian squadron is this one (type 5)



Maslov, in his paper about the chinese I-16 in Air magazine n?4, explains that chinese I-16 use to were 4 numbers code, the first two were the squadron number (chungtui) and the last two the plane number.
the Soviets squadron always according to Maslov only were two number code.

This is probably true and seems to be based on memoirs (photo confirms memoirs...).  Supposedly Soviet pilots asked for large numbers, easier to recognize from distance.

Photo clearly shows Type 5, not Type 10 - so your "70" is hypothetical, it shows how 1939 Type 10 would have been marked if flown in 1938 by Soviet volunteers...  Cheesy


Konstantin I open this topic in May, I find it's quite a pity that you give me your opinion, just now, when the work is ended, we could have think together another way to represent a russian pilot in China...

Embarrassed Sorry, Nationalist China Air Force isn't my field of expertise...  Lets say that your model is a victim of poor information that can be found in popular literature (number of I-16 which were delivered to China in 1938 is wrong even in Maslov's books).

Suggestion how to make your hypotheticaly marked Type 10 more authentic:  Replace fuselage number "70" with smaller "2423" and you will have an authentic Chinese Air Force I-16 Type 10.   Smiley

Cheers,
KL

PS.  if you want to represent an I-16 flown by a Soviet volunteer in 1938 as your future project, you should go for:

-  I-16 Type 5
-  black nose
-  light blue undersides
-  fuselage number "67"

HTH,
KL

« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 01:11:37 AM by KL » Logged
xan
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« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2014, 10:46:23 AM »

your "70" is hypothetical
I know it and I allways present it like that

Suggestion how to make your hypotheticaly marked Type 10 more authentic:  Replace fuselage number "70" with smaller "2423" and you will have an authentic Chinese Air Force I-16 Type 10.
If I'm not wrong, this pic is taken in 1941.
If I replace the number, I should have remove the tail's stripes and the wings upper roundel.
There by I would have a authentic all green I-16 with four little numbers...
you will understand that for a modeler's this choice is a little bit dry, and why I did not keep that option...

-  I-16 Type 5
-  black nose
-  light blue undersides
-  fuselage number "67"

just as I did for the republican one you can see above...

I could have represent too a Sheng Shih-tsai warlord's I-16 in the west of china, but I wanted to speak about china war...


kozachenko returned in july of 1938, so it's quite sure he didn't fly type 10.
well this pilot was not particulary important for me.
As I tell you, I wanted first to show the evolution of standard paints in the VVS





I could have do another spanish I-16 or a kalkhin gol war one, but I didn't  Wink
so, soviet pilot get of China in november december of 1939.
Let me imagine that a soviet pilot could have fly in a similar I-16 type 10 in 1939...

Xan
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 06:54:04 PM by xan » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2014, 06:55:14 AM »

Hi Xan and KL,
 I like the markings of these planes of the Chinese warlord.
.
Do you know if the interpretation of these marks shown on the drawing of Eduard is accurate?

The six-braced star looks white in one photo, but darker in the other one. Could it be painted in another color, maybe yellow or gold?
Regards
Massimo
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xan
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« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2014, 11:09:16 AM »

Do you know if the interpretation of these marks shown on the drawing of Eduard is accurate?

Hi Massimo,

you can add that pic too:



hard to say...
in the first pic, stars don't seem white...
I would say white, but without any avidence:



anyway the second pic is interesting for us because it shows seven type 10; the first two of them are paint in the old way of painting (brfore 1938) with black nose and surely old dark green...
Those plane were painted in USSR, and it means that type 10 were not all pinted with the new standart.

By the way, do you think that black nose was only applied in the old standart (before 1938) or do you think black nose could be painted  with AII green new standard ?
In my opinion , it's the first option, but I'm not sure...

Xan
« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 11:13:22 AM by xan » Logged

otto
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« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2014, 11:46:09 AM »

Xan, I cannot comment about markings accuracy, but your models are really well done!  Grin
Among my "to do" plans there is an 1/48 I-16 Type 5, possibly modifying an Eduard Type 10. What does it mean "Neomega 1/48" on your Type 5 picture? Is there a conversion set or a complete kit from Neomega? I did not find it on their on line catalogue.
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xan
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« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2014, 01:43:13 PM »

Hi Otto,
it's a complete resine kit from Neomega, wich is not in the catalog indeed. It will surely be in the future. he is preparing an UTI-2 too...
I could have the kit because a friend of mine is neomega Alexei's friend too...
here is the presentation in the french forum


Xan
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2014, 03:17:46 PM »

Hi Xan,
thank you for your further images.
I see the black nose on the closer two planes; it seems also that the overall color is less shining than on far planes, so it seems likely that a different type of paint was used.
I suppose that black nose was related to the old standard, but who knows, planes could always  be repainted for maintenance in partial or total way. In this case, the use of the more recent paint can always be justified, if one has to guess.
Both front photos seem to show that the undersurfaces of the wing consoles were silver; the discontinuity outside the landing gear leg is evident. The metallic parts seem grey, not a metallic color. I'm not sure about the rear fuselage, that was wooden and probably painted with a different color than the metallic parts; anyway I can't see any metallic shining under it.
It's difficult to say about the six braced star on the fuselage. The strong difference of its look inphotos can suggest a metallic color; I would guess gold because I think that it has an emotional value for Chineses (at least, gold, black and red are easily found in Chinese restaurants) but it is a guess only. Perhaps this mark was utilized on flags or uniforms of this warlord; it could be that an historian can find further informations on this.
Regards
Massimo


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Troy Smith
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« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2014, 04:43:00 PM »

Xan, I cannot comment about markings accuracy, but your models are really well done!  Grin
Among my "to do" plans there is an 1/48 I-16 Type 5, possibly modifying an Eduard Type 10. What does it mean "Neomega 1/48" on your Type 5 picture? Is there a conversion set or a complete kit from Neomega? I did not find it on their on line catalogue.

Hi Otto

the only Type 5 conversion I know is the Airwaves one, mentioned above.  Not listed at Hannant's who are the Airwaves supplier.
small image


I got one second hand recently, it's well cast, but is for the Academy/Hobbycraft I-16.   

I'll post up a better photo later.
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