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Author Topic: Piotr Kozachenko's I-16 in China (ended)  (Read 15663 times)
KL
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« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2014, 09:36:48 PM »

Hi Xan,
to illustrate confusion in Russian popular literature - two profiles of your Type 10 No "70"




According to http://i16fighter.ru/operational-history/china/profiles.htm  this plane was flown by Soviet volunteer and fighter ace Grigoriy Kravchenko!!!



Quote
С 13 марта по 24 августа 1938 года участвовал в боях с японскими захватчиками в Китае. Летал на И-16  ( 76 часов боевого налёта ), в 8 воздушных боях сбил 7 самолётов противника  ( 6 лично и 1 в группе с товарищами ).

Kravchenko participated in combats in China from March 13 to August 24 1938.  He flew I-16 (72 hours in combat missions) in 8 air combats he shot down 7 enemy planes (6 personal victories + 1 in group).

Kravchenko had a stellar career:  commanded a fighter regiment at Halhin-Gol, commanded a special group during the Winter War ("Group Kravchenko"), became chief of the fighter inspection and commander of all aviation units of the Baltic Military District.

Twice awarded HSU (in 1939 and 1940), became a general at the age of 28!

Quote
В период Великой Отечественной войны на фронте, командовал 11-й смешанной авиационной дивизией, ВВС 3-й Армии, Ударной авиагруппой Ставки Верховного Главнокомандования, 215-й истребительной авиационной дивизией. Сражался на Западном, Брянском, Калининском, Ленинградском и Волховском фронтах.

23 февраля 1943 года погиб в воздушном бою. Похоронен в Москве у Кремлёвской стены.

During the GPV commanded 11 Mixed Air Division, Air Force of the 3rd Army, etc., etc.
Killed in air combat on Feb 23, 1943.  Buried in Kremlin wall...

IMHO, Kravchenko's I-16 may have had number 70, but it was Type 5, not Type 10.  Profiles reflect widespread belief that Type 10 were widely used in China between 1938 and 1940.  The truth is different: Type 5 was the most numerous I-16 type.  Actually, I-15bis was the mainstay of the Chinese Nationalist Air Force (there was even a group of Soviet volunteers which flew I-15bis), not I-16.  According to Anderssen,  between 1937 and 1941 Soviets sold to China:

-  289 I-15bis
-  76 I-153
-  197 I-16 (incl. 30 Type 10)

I-15bis was also produced in China.  Total production was probably 33 planes.

interesting...
KL  

 
« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 09:41:14 PM by KL » Logged
KL
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« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2014, 10:17:43 PM »

Do you know if the interpretation of these marks shown on the drawing of Eduard is accurate?

The six-braced star looks white in one photo, but darker in the other one. Could it be painted in another color, maybe yellow or gold?

The star (and the whole marking) are described as white in available literature.  In 1933 Soviets established a flight school in Sinkiang equipped with few R-5s and U-2s




To date photos of I-16 lineup, check wikipedia page about the Sinkiang warlord Sheng Shicai: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheng_Shicai

In 1942, sensing the Soviet Union's demise, he turned anti-Soviet, expelling Soviet advisors and executing many Han Communists, including Mao Zemin, Mao Zedong's brother, in hopes of securing the backing of the Kuomintang (KMT, Chinese Nationalist Party) for his continued rule.



Airplanes are decorated with Nationalist China and Kuomintang flags

 

In 1942 it is unlikely that planes were still in the original factory colours - more likely a local repainting.

Regards,
KL
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xan
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« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2014, 12:29:39 AM »


According to http://i16fighter.ru/operational-history/china/profiles.htm  this plane was flown by Soviet volunteer and fighter ace Grigoriy Kravchenko!!!

this was the start of my project; when  I saw the lake of documentation I thought anyway I had to use a beginning base which was that profile.
I'm afraid I tried to concentrate all the things I was loocking for:
- a 1938 new standard paint Type 10
- a chinese plane with the early national marks (tails and upper roudels)
- a soviet volunteer pilot
too much things surely...
But be sure and believe that I tried to keep an historical way, honestly...
By the way do the sovietwarplane comunity agree with my interpretation of the two VVS paints different standart ? (before and after 1938)
we can in my opinion found the same difference in soviet's spanish republican planes at the same period, as in VVS planes...
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2014, 04:37:16 AM »

Hi KL,
thank you for the interesting informations.
I think to understand that, when the warlord was allied witt SU, there were not markings on the wings as on the profile of R-5 (if this is drawn right). Then the Chinese roundels were added in 1942 after the alliance with Kuomintang. A red repainting of the stars is unlikely because would have resembled both to Communist and Japanese markings.
Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2014, 05:16:37 AM »

Hi Xan and KL,
Quote
Quote
By the way do the sovietwarplane comunity agree with my interpretation of the two VVS paints different standart ? (before and after 1938)
we can in my opinion found the same difference in soviet's spanish republican planes at the same period, as in VVS planes...

it would be good to resume the conclusions of recent discussions to update the color pages:
up to 1937, dark olive drab uppersurfaces and light blue undersurfaces (darker than AII blue when new, but turning quicky to grey), with black cowlings for I-16 only; an easily peeling off light grey was used on some metal bombers;
around 1938: dark green (comparable to 3B) uppersurfaces and grey/silver undersurfaces; few factories continued the use of light blue; metal bombers were painted forthemost silver;(but an apparently well preserved piece of I-15bis shows an olive shade)
around 1939: most types became silver/grey, only few as the I-16 preserved the dark green (or AII green?) uppersurfaces; metallic bombers were forthemost gloss light grey
spring 1940-spring 1941: AII green/blue mixed construction planes, A-18F/a19F metallic planes; some mixed construcion types show different colors on wooden and metallic parts. It's still to clarify if the dark shade of AII green of Akan is compatible with the lighter shade of the Bourget I-153.
Do you agree with this reconstruction?
Regards
Massimo



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xan
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« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2014, 11:35:22 AM »

I don' t agree with all. Note I'm not sure at all, and perhaps try to make standart in a period of test in the VVS is an error...
furthermore, the normative we can find can't be applied to all the planes.
anyway, it's important to try to make a chronology of thid period paint

1) 1927/1937
(I allways put 1927 because I saw that in your classification Massimo, but what did really happens in 1927 ?)

Upper surfaces color: dark green, according to konstantin: "Protective" green was dark, moss green (some Spanish modellers say it was similar to RLM 83)

under surfaces color: we have a really evidence (thanks to Konstantin) with the  stratostate URSS-1 (altitude rcord baloon) wich is kept in MAE in Paris. This was done in the factory 23, the same who used to make the Polikarpov planes (I-16 type 5 for exemple)
the metalic part of the polikarpov have to be painted in this color, and we can think that protective color for the fabric was close to it...


the nose are painted in black in the I-15 and the I-16 (but the pics I saw of polikarpov RZ in Spain are not)
wheels were paint in black too in the I-15 ant the I-16

2) 1938 / 1940

it's the most complicated period.

The I-15 bis
upper surface AIIz for fabric
under surface AII alu for fabrisc and AE-9 for metal parts (grey blue)

The I-153
All AIIalu for metal parts and AE-9 for metalic part

the I-16
AIIz for upper surface
pale blue who quickly turned to light grey (in zavoy 21 no AII alu was used according to Orlov)

Alex a Rusian friend of mine, traduce me some part of the Orlov paper about the prewar VVS paints.
next message some Orlov paper element, but I have to go know ...
Xan

in febrery of 1937 a, general Alexandrov signed the  Circular


Alex a russian friend of mine gave the official deceret name an date, but I don't find it... it was in the late 1937...


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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2014, 01:45:51 PM »

Hi Xan,
thank you for the interesting reply.

About earlier planes, the colors reported at http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/before1937/before1937.html are from the indications of Akan catalogue, the best source available when the page was written. Of course, he did his researches, but I think that some colors could have been based on single pieces. The idea that they are well preserved and representative of a general standard is a reasonable hypothesis but not a proven fact. The date of 1927 is from his catalogue, but my page entiles 'before 1937' and the older plane in photos is of 1926, I think.
About the camo colors, Akan offers two colors: a 'khaki' (olive green) up to 1936 (don't remember well) and dark green 3B in 36/37. Both are found on the same piece of TB-3, the khaki underlying the dark green. A piece of Spanish I-16 of Montoya shows two layers of colors, the underlying one looks consistent with the 'khaki'of Akan.
The idea that the dark green 3B, similar to German 83, was of general use in 1936-38 is proposed by Konstantin on the base of the description of a Spanish R-5 or R-z. Please, Konstantin, correct me if I am wrong. One has also to say that the chip of AII green produced by Akan is dark enough to resemble 83, and darker than the color of the I-153 of Bourget. 
We know also that a green AE-7 did exist, but its shade and use wasn't exactly known by Orlov himself.
About the undersurfaces: we have the grey-blue of Akan, the blue of the URSS-1 (looks different in different photos, did you manage to find a good match?), the greenish shade of the U-2 in Finland (probably altered), the blues on the Polikarpov piece of Montoya (the darkest shade being probably the original Soviet one), the information that the blue used in Z.23 (or 21?) turned to grey, the fact that this color can be clearly seen as darker than AE-9 on bw photos... What conclusions on it? I think that, if it was always the same color, we should take the best chip (probably the baloon), darken and saturate it a bit and have an idea how the new color appeared, and consider acceptable a greyish version of it as faded color available on a still operative plane.
Returning to the greens, I could add that early planes as I-3 and I-5 had a further color, very dark and gloss, whose hue is unknown, probably an olive green or yellowish green as the other ones.

I am greatly interested to know the notes of your friend Alex on prewar colors. Could he take contact with Orlov in any way? I had contacts with Akanihin some years ago, but the bad quality of the automatic translation obstacled this.

Best regards
Massimo




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KL
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« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2014, 07:02:27 PM »

I also don't agree with all.  Smiley ... you have combined info from Orlov, from Akanihin, my ideas and ideas from others and you got "dog's breakfast" (or "ensalada mixta" in Spanish).
just a few comments:

- I would not use word "khaki" for any prewar/WWII Soviet colour.  It has specific meaning in English, and it was used for something else in post-war SSSR.
- 3B is representative for pre-1938 "protective", it wasn't used on planes (spec not on fabric) but, aviation equivalents were probably very similar.
- change from 3B to 4BO started in 1938.  When it happened in aviation, I don't know...  Grin
- I am very skeptical with the theory "that the blue ... turned to grey".  This is not what we see on preserved pieces.

Overall, I don't see too much to be changed in your existing pages...

Regards,
KL   
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2014, 06:37:07 AM »

Hi Konstantin,
I am trying to merge all the sources I have.
I think to remember that 'khaki' was used on the Akan catalogue, but I agree that olive green is a more adequate definition. It would be good to know the date of transition between olive green and dark green, I think around 1936.
I have also to say that the piece of I-15bis in the Finnish museum (its photo at least) resembles more to the  early olive green than to a dark green.
It would also be good to know if the grey-blue proposed by Akan is an altered version of the same light blue seen on the balloon, if this is similar to the darkest blue on the piece of I-16 of Montoya. Unfortunately the photos of the CCCP-1 don't help much, my perception is of a greyish blue but I didn't see the real thing.
Another thing to clarify is if the green found on the I-153 of Bourget is compatible with the dark shade of AII green proposed by Akan.
On wartime photos, planes as MiG-3, Il-2, Yak 2/4 show clearly the dark shade of the fabric/wood parts contrasting with the lighter one of metal parts. On photos of I-153, we don't see this, besides the impression is that the uniformly painted planes conform to the lighter of the shades (A-19f?) and not to the darker one (aii green). This seems in contrast with the idea that the light A-19f was for metal planes only and the dark AII green would have been used for all primed surfaces.
I have also to say that I think that AII green and A-19F were less contrasting when new, and contrast increased with ageing.
Have you a way to solve some of my doubts, please?

By the way, I often look at color photos of modern Russian vehicles and planes, and the variability of shades is impressive. Some standard can be recognized, but in some cases the colors change according to the type, without taking into account planes and tanks repainted according to unit standards or improvised... I hope that the matter of prewar and ww2 planes is really so simple as we know it.
Regards
Massimo


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xan
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« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2014, 05:47:08 PM »

I try to do an english traduction of the french traduction Alex did for me...with my poor English too hard. I thought the better was ask to Alex to join us in the forum...

Xan
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2014, 07:42:38 PM »

Hi Xan,
this would be very good.
Eventually, an automatic translation should be understandable.
Regards
Massimo
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