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Author Topic: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT  (Read 9648 times)
Massimo Tessitori
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« on: June 14, 2014, 11:17:49 AM »

Hi,
there is an interesting discussion here:
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_954_start_300.html
For what I understand, they are discussing about some document that describes experimental camouflages just before the war, and a document seems to indicate that they employed the unknown AMT-2, 3, 5 paints.
Who can understand better their topic?
Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2014, 10:06:34 PM »

Hi, I've received  some clarifications and an interesting scan from Andrey Averin.
The image, althogh deformed , is interesting because it was probably published with the first order to camouflage planes, that remained widely unapplied and was replaced by simpler and more known instructions in June 1941.



Unfortunately, all the few photos of polychromatic planes of early 1941 (I-16, LaGG-3, Il-2, Pe-2, MiG-3, DB-3, SB) don't follow these patterns.
About the colors and their number: there is no any document that AMT colors with unusual numbers and shades were put into production.
My idea is that some cans of paint were mixed on the field for tests, were numbered and then only the choosen colors were put into production as AMT, conserving the numbers and shades of the experimental ones.
Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 08:34:26 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
KL
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« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2014, 10:51:52 PM »

Drawings were published first time in 2009 book "Development of Soviet Aviation in prewar period (1938-41)" by A.C. Stepanov.

My idea is that some cans of paint were mixed on the field for tests, were numbered and then only the choosen colors were put into production as AMT, conserving the numbers and shades of the experimental ones.

What field tests???

Regards,
KL
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 02:48:21 AM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2014, 02:55:43 PM »

Perhaps those of 1940. This directive was based on that experience.
Regards
Massimo
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Dark Green Man
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« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2014, 03:10:38 AM »

Hello,
I am interested in some of these schemes for use on model kits.
of interest are the I-16 , Su-2 and Yak-1
would it be possible to get scans that show the block of color choices below each of the
ones I am most interested in Huh
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"when we lose the right to be different, we lose the priviledge to be free"--Charles Evans Hughes
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2014, 06:41:25 PM »

Hi,
these images are from Scalemodels.ru, I think they are the captions of the same drawings.





Who can translate the exact names of the colors?

Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2014, 07:03:39 PM »



Etalon 1:  Light Brown (dirty sand)
Etalon 2:  Gray (with yellow hue)
Etalon 3:  Yellow
Etalon 5:  Dark Green
Etalon 6:  Black (achromatic)

HTH,
KL 
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2014, 09:08:15 PM »

Thank you Konstantin,
what are the other parameters?
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2014, 11:17:33 PM »

Thank you Konstantin,
what are the other parameters?

5th column is Yarkost = Luminance
6th column is Approx area covered with each colour
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2014, 06:30:11 PM »

Thank you, maybe this will help to guess a likely color.
Regards
Massimo
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Dark Green Man
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« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2014, 12:30:23 AM »

Hue , saturation and brightness values for the colors were listed in the article linked to at
scalemodels.ru.

that isn't what I was asking for...
what three colors for the I-16 ?
what three colors for the Su-2 ? (looks like no. 5 not no. 6?)
are they recommending AMT-1/4/6 for the Yak-1 ?
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KL
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« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2014, 12:43:34 AM »

that isn't what I was asking for...
what three colors for the I-16 ?
what three colors for the Su-2 ? (looks like no. 5 not no. 6?)
are they recommending AMT-1/4/6 for the Yak-1 ?

From schemes posted so far (from Stepanov's book) only I-16 can be reconstructed:

Etalon 2:  Gray (with yellow hue)
Etalon 4:  Green (with yellow hue)
Etalon 5:  Dark Green

How could they recommend AMT paints for Yak-1 when AMT paints didn't exist?
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2014, 07:46:23 AM »

Hi,
I've shown all what I have on these sketches.
I've asked Andrey for further informations, without any answer till now, so I suppose that he has sent all the images he has about this booklet; he hasn't the booklet itself.
One could try asking with a post in the topic of Scalemodels.ru. Probably there are two of them in possess of better scans or of the original. I suppose that ABC is Orlov.
Here is a citation from his post:

Quote
It is not so simple. I say that the color AMT-1 and the number of paint color to blend in standard 1, scheduled for 1941, were close (as close - I do not know), and the same applies for the AMT- 4 and -6 (although for AMT-6, I think - very close Delighted.) And the numbers are, of course, is no accident. Sealants AMT certainly developed on the basis of these standards. 's not for nothing that the conclusion of the report Test deform aircraft painting "Sat", "I-153" and "I-16", approved by the Director of the Air Force of the Red Army Air Force Major General Filin October 11, 1940 G. says: "8. As a result tests and sophistication desired color masking effect of color is given to the following characteristics Color Name Number of pp Brightness Hue Saturation on Ostwald on Menselu 1 dirty sand 0255-0240 June 5 to 1 2 gray with a yellow tinge 0195-0200 June 1 3 Yellow 0145-0150 April 3 4 green with a yellow tinge 0120-0130 00 3 5 Dark Green 0.05-0.06 00 -01 1 6 Black achromatic 00:04 More information on trials in 1940 can be found here http:// scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_954_start_0.html? NoCache = 1396944108 Some more data on these tests (eg, the formulations were tested in 1940 paints) can be sent by e-mail, possible relationship. This is not because of a conspiracy, but simply tabular data difficult to insert in the post .

CTS wrote (a):
Then I wonder how it looked AMT-2, 3,5 5-flower?

And what kind of response you want to get to this question? ? What would someone sent samples as a magician rabbit out of a hat
I can only say one thing: no papers, no mention of drug AMT-2, 3,5 I have not seen. were? can be had, but a limited pilot batch. O perhaps because they have not received index AMT AMT-4 Specification and -7 was approved 07/03/41 and programs for 1941 were developed in 1940. It 'important not to confuse these schemes with black and green camouflage pattern in 1941 , introduced 6/20/41 and sealants used AMT-4 and AMT-6 (as you can see, a few weeks before the approved specifications for these paints.)
Here's how that is so, it seems to me ...

The translation is unperfect, but it's interesting anyway.
It would be good if someone asks more on Scalemodels.ru.

Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2014, 10:03:45 AM »

Hi,
a table with thranslation from Averin.



Now I wonder how to interpretate the hue of Ostwald  and saturation of Mensel (or Munsell?).
It's interesting to see that the reflectivity of the yellow is lower than that of the sand.

Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 08:36:00 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2014, 11:36:52 AM »

Hi,
I've found two versions of the disk of colors of Ostwald: one divided into 24 parts, one into 100 parts.


In both them, the hue 0 corresponds to apple green, and more or less this can generate a color as AMT-4.
On the centesimal circle, the difference in hue with other colors is marginal, so both dirty sand, grey, yellow etc have a greenish look.
If I use the circle divided into 24 parts, all the other colors are strongly reddish.

The hues (in 24 choices) look better described here http://www.vcsconsulting.co.uk/Colour/Help/ColourOrderSystems/DIN6164.html
but I haven't well understood how to interpretate the darkness and saturation, that doesn't look the same of this table.

Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 08:36:38 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
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