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Author Topic: polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT  (Read 8712 times)
KL
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« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2014, 10:35:46 PM »

Hi Massimo,

Strange they combined 2 different systems; Ostwald and Munsell.  Even harder to understand why they didn't define colours in one system.

I've found two versions of the disk of colors of Ostwald: one divided into 24 parts, one into 100 parts.

I searched Ostwald's system and it is definitively based on 24 pure colours arranged in a circle.  Colours 05 and 06 don't exist in Ostwald's colour wheel.

Following illustration is from Ostwald's colour Atlas


The hues (in 24 choices) look better described here http://www.vcsconsulting.co.uk/Colour/Help/ColourOrderSystems/DIN6164.html
but I haven't well understood how to interpretate the darkness and saturation, that doesn't look the same of this table.

IMHO, those color tables are not related to Oswald color wheel which was made of pure colours designated with numbers.  In Ostwald's system, numbers were combined with letters which depended on the amount of gray (or pure black, or pure white), so that the colour was determined with 2 parameters: hue (number) and amount of gray (two letters).

   
« Last Edit: June 23, 2014, 10:52:32 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2014, 09:09:49 AM »

Hi Konstantin,
yes, it's strange that they mixed two methods. Perhaps three methods, because the darkness looks related to a scale realized on printed paper.
The main uncertainty is related to the hue; as you see, there are wheels with numbers from 1 to 24 (the most usual system); if interpreted in this way, the greys and browns are much reddish.  If interpreted on the wheel numbered 00-96, interpolating the hues, the look is much more greenish, but are more adequate to a 'yellow' description.
I hope to find a different color described with the same method: for example, if a blue hue is described as 60, it must be on the centesimal scale; if it is described as 15 or 16, it must be on the 1/24 scale.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2014, 08:36:19 PM »

I hope to find a different color described with the same method: for example, if a blue hue is described as 60, it must be on the centesimal scale; if it is described as 15 or 16, it must be on the 1/24 scale.

I searched more today and now I am 100% convinced that colour wheel had 24 colours only.  Let me know when you find Ostwald's centesimal color wheel...

Colour wheel has 24 colours designated either as:

-  1, 2, 3, ....   24
-  00, 04, 08, ... 96

Check here:  http://books.google.ca/books?id=2kFVSRGC650C&pg=PA89&lpg=PA89&dq=ostwald+vollfarbe&source=bl&ots=ZJ1UmrejO-&sig=mzG78rcNGMh37WctuiYcOba0MJY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NLapU_WqEI67oQS1_IKICA&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

On page 420, you will find shades of blue colour designated as 14 or 54.  Ostwald's colour space is described on page 89.

regards,
KL


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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2014, 10:30:04 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
the chips are always 24, but the numbers multiple of 4  from 00 to 96 are 25; interpolating, one has numbers from 00 to 99, that are 100.
So, if numbers cited by the Russian text starts with 0 and have 2 numbers, it seems the centesimal scale.
perhaps I can try and see what comes out.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2014, 02:36:27 AM »

the chips are always 24, but the numbers multiple of 4  from 00 to 96 are 25; interpolating, one has numbers from 00 to 99, that are 100.
So, if numbers cited by the Russian text starts with 0 and have 2 numbers, it seems the centesimal scale.

We agree that there are always  24 chips.  I can't understand How do 25 intervals and 100 degrees scale help???

Regards,
KL   
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2014, 09:34:14 AM »

Hi Konstantin,
I made a try.
The part on the hues was the easiest: I found a DIN colors table that has the same hues of Ostwald.
So the 00 of the Russian table is Ostwald 24 (apple green), corresponding to H=72% of Photoshop. So, 04 was Ostwald 1(lemon yellow), H=54%, 08 was Ostwald 2 (warm yellow), H=46% (not a linear scale, seems). I made some interpolations for colors 05 and 06.
The darkness was more difficult, the printed Russian table gives unconsistent results. So I made an arbitrary law on Photoshop: B= 10%+ 2x the brightness of this Russian document.
The saturation was difficult too: I found an image from a Munsell table, but the saturation of yellows go from 0 t0 20, and both 1 and 3 were practically grey. So I assumed that saturation 1 was 20% on Photoshop and 3 was 60%.
Here is the result of such assumptions:




Of course I won't take it as accurate, but it's the best thing I can do with these data.

Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 08:37:26 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
KL
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« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2014, 05:29:17 PM »

The part on the hues was the easiest: I found a DIN colors table that has the same hues of Ostwald.

Hi Massimo,
interesting... could you please provide the link to that DIN color table?

Regards,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2014, 06:40:10 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
it's this one.

http://www.vcsconsulting.co.uk/Colour/Help/ColourOrderSystems/DIN6164.html
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2014, 07:06:49 PM »

Hi Massimo,

I can't see 24 pure colors (vollfarben in Ostwald)...

here you can download scan of 1942 American edition of Ostwalds color Atlas: http://www.posgradofadu.com.ar/archivos/biblio_doc/Jacobson1942.pdf
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 07:17:17 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2014, 08:40:00 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
it's not necessary to take pure colors. One can choose a column, pick a color and read its hue. Theoretically it should be the same on the whole column.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2014, 07:36:59 PM »

it's not necessary to take pure colors. One can choose a column, pick a color and read its hue. Theoretically it should be the same on the whole column.

An elegant solution, I have to admit!

Your "Green with yellow tinge" (in reality 4BO or future AMT-4) looks close enough - so your approximations are OK.  I used wavelength for Ostwald's 00 colour and got "yellow-green", I suppose close to what you are calling "apple green".

I will check what they meant with those "brightness-luminosity" numbers.

Regards,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2014, 05:43:25 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
I've received some chips from Andrey. They are reconstructions of chips on printed paper from Sovet tanks manuals of 1942 and 1981 (if I don't miss the dates) so they are not necessarily accurate or identical to those of planes, but appear related as definitions of colors, so we should keep them into account.

I think I'll make some sort of compromise.
Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 08:38:17 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2014, 05:59:11 PM »

Hi,
I've made small arbitrary modifications to my chips to align them better with expectations due to their name and more distinguishable.



Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 08:39:05 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
KL
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« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2014, 09:02:40 AM »

I've received some chips from Andrey. They are reconstructions of chips on printed paper from Sovet tanks manuals of 1942 and 1981 (if I don't miss the dates)


Hi Massimo,
there is no doubt that colors tested in 1940 and those that appear on proposed schemes are the same as Army camouflage colors (i.e. tank/artillery colors).

"Dirty sand" is latter standard 7K
"Gray with yellow tinge" is 4K
"Green with yellow tinge" is 4BO
"Dark Green" is most likely old 3B
"Dark Brown" from Andrey's list is 6K

Regards,
KL
 
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2014, 03:47:24 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
this idea is possible, but doesn't seem to fit well with the hue and saturation on the table. This dirty sand looks too saturate to have a value '1'  and the yellow (yg) looks more reddish than it, while it should be not reddish at all. The defintion of 'yellow' instead of 'brown' , 'Khaki', 'Ochre', 'Sand' etc is a bit strange for a so dark color, probably it is hard to be defined in other ways.
Regards
Massimo
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