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Author Topic: VVS I-16 camouflage in Chalkin Gol?  (Read 7226 times)
66misos
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« on: July 13, 2014, 04:01:37 PM »

Hi,
This is from Massimo's Mig3 page http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/i16/i16painting/I16painting.htm
In 1937, the standards of painting the Soviet military planes were modified by the gradual introduction of new paints:
- Top & side surfaces: AII Z gloss camouflage green
- Bottom surfaces: AE-9 gloss light grey for metal and AII light grey or AII aluminium for wood/fabric

Planes from Chalking Gol on the following photos seems to be painted in line with that:

note metallic shining on the bottom outer half of the wing (e.g. AII aluminium over wood/fabric?), different from centerplane (AE-9 light grey over metalic?)

note again significantly different color on the bottom outer half of the wing in comparison with the centerplane.

However, text accompanying this photo:

5-1 looks a type 17; this was the plane of 2nd leutnant Katalov of 22th IAP crashed during the fights against Japaneses in Nomonhan, Manchuria, in 1939.
The planes were delivered to the unit in a light grey livery, but this resembled the colors of Japanese Ki-27, leading to dangerous misunderstandings. So the uppersurfaces were repainted green, leaving only a light grey band around the fuselage.
IMHO, at least on this photo the band on the fuselage of 5-1 seems not to be the same color as bottom fuselage (AII ligh grey?). It is a bit darker, somewhere translucent (darker blotches) and it does not continue over light grey bottom fuselage - demarcation line is clearly visible.



Moreover, profiles on the internet usually/always show "AII?) blue bottom surfaces:


My questions:
1.) Where is origin of the info that planes were delivered to the unit in a light grey livery and latter the uppersurfaces were repainted green?
2.) In case of the overall grey did they use combination of AE-9 gloss light grey for metal and AII light grey or AII aluminium for wood/fabric?

Regards,
  66misos
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KL
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« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2014, 08:58:27 PM »

Hi Misos,
Information about the light gray I-16s comes from V. Kondryatev's books.  IMHO, the information is spurious...
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66misos
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« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2014, 12:45:33 PM »

Hi KL,
thanx for reply. And who is V. Kondryatev? I did not find anything relevant at Google.
If there is no other (clear) evidence I would go for then valid standards, e.g. AII Green upper surface, AE-9 gloss light grey for metal and AII aluminium for wood/fabric on the bottom surfaces.
Band on the fuselage seems to have the same color as digit "5". When looking at the first photo in this thread (and a lot of LaGGs and MiGs...) red looks almost white.
IMHO that band could be yellow, red etc. and probably only over AII green. Huh
Regards,
    66miso
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xan
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« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2014, 05:33:03 PM »

Hi konstantin and Misos,
I'm working in this period too.
I'm doing an I-16 type 5 (neomega resin model) in northern front of Spain in 1937, who wil be paint in old colours, dark green and pale blue and black...

I paint I-15 in those colours:


but I have stil a lot of work before painting:



the second one will be an I-16 type 10 (eduard model) in China in 1939 painted acording to 1938 new standart

AIIz green (I will use akan colour) as for this I-15 bis

for underside, it's right that in this period AII silver was used.

 But according to Orlov, AII silver were never used un zavod 21. in stad of it, they use light blue paint who quickly became light grey in operation.
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_954.html
I don't know russian but a friend of mine do and gave me this information

If I'm not wrong most of type 10 were build in zavod 21...


Neither  this one is ready to be painted :

if you are interested, here's the two planes build link:
http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=82364&hilit=Polikarpov

Xan

 



« Last Edit: July 14, 2014, 05:36:46 PM by xan » Logged

KL
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« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2014, 01:13:46 AM »

And who is V. Kondryatev? I did not find anything relevant at Google.





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KL
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« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2014, 07:32:10 PM »

Typo,  Shocked it's Vyacheslav Kondratyev.  check here: http://vikond65.livejournal.com/
Regards,
KL
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66misos
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« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2014, 05:19:09 PM »

Hi KL,
thanks for info and link.
I found there section about Chalkin Gol http://vikond65.livejournal.com/tag/%D0%A5%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%85%D0%B8%D0%BD-%D0%93%D0%BE%D0%BB
I still did not read it all, but these planes look like standard painting from that time - AIIz green uppersurface and light grey and/or aluminium on the bottom surfaces:


Why to suppose that planes were painted overall grey in factory, against standard scheme, and green was only field application?

Regards,
   66misos
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KL
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« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2014, 05:58:01 PM »

Why to suppose that planes were painted overall grey in factory, against standard scheme, and green was only field application?

Because the popular aviation literature is full of perpetuated myths, guesses, assumptions, wrong analogies etc.  Grin
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66misos
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« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2014, 06:52:49 AM »

Hi KL,
I agree we you about those myths, assumptions etc.
I browsed over all that section about Chalkin Gol http://vikond65.livejournal.com/tag/%D0%A5%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%85%D0%B8%D0%BD-%D0%93%D0%BE%D0%BB. It is full of dates, events chronology etc. I did not find there info about painting grey I-16 planes, may be I just missed it. Anyhow there is a lot of pictures.

I did not read any of Kondratyev's books but probably someone else missinterpeted his info. I found this profile in his text:

...the band on the fuselage of 5-1 seems not to be the same color as bottom fuselage (AII ligh grey?). It is a bit darker, somewhere translucent (darker blotches) and it does not continue over light grey bottom fuselage - demarcation line is clearly visible.
...I would go for then valid standards, e.g. AII Green upper surface, AE-9 gloss light grey for metal and AII aluminium for wood/fabric on the bottom surfaces....Band on the fuselage seems to have the same color as digit "5"... IMHO that band could be yellow, red etc. and probably only over AII green. Huh


Here are some other 1-16 profiles from that journal:






This looks like precious factory painting, nothig like rough field work:

« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 09:07:45 AM by 66misos » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2014, 08:14:08 AM »

Hi Misos and Konstantin,
interesting light blue markings, even stars. Is this written on the text too?
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2014, 09:24:08 AM »

Hi Massimo,
I did not find any mention about painting either in text or in comments. Only strict facts what-where-when.
Note this photo from my first post in this thread:

Accompanying text says:
"...Yellow propeller spinner and back part of rudder is only assumption, also possible was blue, silver or grey color."
Regards,
    66misos
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xan
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« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2014, 03:12:55 PM »

Hello in my opinion blue star is nonsens an just the profil drawer's interpretation...
about the plane repeinted in the field, I don't agree too.
This khalkhin gol war's plane is always presented like a repeinted one:



it's right that the peint is not very regular but there can be very much other explictions...

the only I-16 repeinted I know, is this one caught by the germans in 1941



if I don't find information enough about my chinese I-16, the white 3 could be an alternative for my type 10's decoration

Xan
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 03:21:39 PM by xan » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2014, 09:34:00 PM »

Hi,
I'm not convinced of the way how '51' is represented on the left side.
I don't know if there is any photo showing it, so my idea is just an assumption.
5 and 1 should be aligned on their top; the bigger number go on the rudder because there is more space, the smaller one on the fin.
Regards
Massimo
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xan
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« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2014, 03:19:53 AM »

Hi massimo, what do you say about the white 3; do you think it can be a field repeinted plane ?

Xan
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2014, 07:43:48 AM »

Hi,
I don't know. Certainly some silver or grey I-16 did exist, but they were rare. I never understood why nearly all types had a grey/silver livery as a rule around 1939, while green uppersurfaces seem the rule for nearly all I-16s in the same time.
Regards
Massimo
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