Sovietwarplanes
September 19, 2019, 09:17:52 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This forum replaces the old sovietwarplanes.com whose domain has expired in January 2017. It has been updated with the posts of the year 2016.
The new location of the site 'Sovietwarplanes pages' is at http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Any photos of this Spitfire?  (Read 4713 times)
barneybolac
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 320


« on: July 24, 2014, 01:39:03 AM »

Also was this an armed or unarmed aircraft?

Seems to be showing tape over supposed gun ports.

Logged
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5777


« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2014, 08:01:38 AM »

Hi,
it shows a gunsight too.
Regards
Massimo
Logged
Graham Boak
Full Member
***
Posts: 117


« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2014, 12:28:55 PM »

PR Mk.IVs were unarmed, because the wing leading edge was taken up by a fuel tank.  The range would be inadequate without this.

They would also normally have a large camera with a belly window, not the side window of the FR types (though I think the option may have been there).  The small belly aerial is therefore in just the wrong place.

I've seen at least one photo of this aircraft - I'd suggest trying the Red Stars In the Sky series by Carl-Frederick Guest (spelling?)
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 12:34:04 PM by Graham Boak » Logged
KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2014, 10:06:21 PM »

No photos on the web.  Huh
and quite a diversity in profiles





"Meibl" seems to be the correct spelling.  Two profiles with LY code between the roundel and tail are probably related to early war PR Spitfires similar to these:



« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 12:13:51 AM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5777


« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2014, 09:40:05 AM »

Hi,
could the plane have been reconstructed from a verbal description only, maybe an interview? If someone says 'mable' in English, a foreigner could heard 'meibl'. The discordances seem to exclude the existance of a photo.
On Red Stars 4, there are photos of plane 01 only.
Regards
Massimo
Logged
Troy Smith
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 380


« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2014, 04:51:50 PM »

I spent sometime searching for the information on "Mable" that i thought i had seen online, but I finally remembered it was in this book



which has some useful information, and this little bit on "Mable"



the book is OOP but can be easily found as a PDF online.  Interesting book too.

The info on VVS PR Spitfires is the most complete I have seen, but I think the profiles are from verbal descriptions.

Konstantin, is there a 'Northern Fleet Musuem' in Murmansk?

Also, a couple of VVS PR Spitfires have been salvaged.

http://ktsorens.tihlde.org/flyvrak/vaddasgaisa.html

Quote
Supermarine Spitfire PR IV Vaddasgaisa, Finnmark

118.RAP (Reconnaissance Regiment) VVS SF BP923 F/O Vladimir Solovkin 04.09 1943

This Spitfire was one of the eleven Spit's that were taken over by the Russian Red Army on October 23 1942. The aircraft was shot down during a recce mission to K?fjord where Tirpitz was moored.
The aircraft went down at mountain Vaddasgaisa, south of Lakselv. The wreckage was discovered again in 1972. In 1989 it was salvaged by the Royal Norwegian Air Force and brought to Gardemoen.

Some years later the aircraft was acquired by Sven Kindblom and brought to Sweden. He is in progress of restoring BP923 into flying condition again.







A total of eleven PR Spitfires were delivered to Russia. At least three of them were shot down in Northern Norway.
BP889 piloted by P/O Gavin "Sleepy Walker" was shot down east of Lakselv in 1942
http://ktsorens.tihlde.org/flyvrak/lakselv.html
BP917 was shot down at Jakobselvvidda in 1944. The pilot Kpt.Viktor V.Aleksandrov lost his life
http://ktsorens.tihlde.org/flyvrak/maddevarri.html
The serials of the other Spitfires which were taken over by the Russians were: AB132, AB423, AB427, BP884, BP891,BP926, BP929, BR658

HTH
T
Logged
KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2014, 07:37:43 PM »

Konstantin, is there a 'Northern Fleet Musuem' in Murmansk?

Yes, there is a "Northern Fleet Aviation Musuem" in Safonovo, not far from Murmansk, but no Spitfires there.  Roll Eyes

More about the museum at http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D1%83%D0%B7%D0%B5%D0%B9_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%BE-%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B4%D1%83%D1%88%D0%BD%D1%8B%D1%85_%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%BB_%D0%A1%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE_%D1%84%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B0

Check links at the end of Wikipedia page or google images for
Музей авиации Северного Флота Сафоново
or
Музей ВВС Северного Флота, пос. Сафоново

I would take that information about the "Mable" with caution - museum did not exist in 1946.... it was opened in 1983...

A total of eleven PR Spitfires were delivered to Russia. At least three of them were shot down in Northern Norway.

11 (or 10?) PR Spitfires is a total that arrived in SSSR.  VVS received 7 PR Spitfires.  Try to translate this:

После завершения операции англичане отказались от опасной обратной перегонки "Спитфайров" и передали их как подарок ВВС Северного флота. По мнению английских механиков, два самолета еще вполне могли летать, а третий годился только на запчасти. 20 октября 1942 г. все три разведчика официально были приняты советской стороной.

Весной 1943 г. в Ваенгу с Шетландских островов перелетели еще три PR IV. Их привел командир 543-й эскадрильи Робинсон. На этот раз ставилась задача собрать информацию для подготовки операции "Брон" - диверсионного рейда сверхмалых подводных лодок против линкора "Тирпиц", стоявшего в Альтен-фьорде. 11 ноября летный и наземный состав английского подразделения погрузился на эсминец. Самолеты опять оставили в Ваенге.

Последний раз английские "Спитфайры"-фоторазведчики прилетали на Кольский полуостров в марте 1944 г. и работали там до конца мая. Из трех отправленных из Сумбурга самолетов один был потерян еще на пути к Мурманску. Из-за неполадок с двигателем командир 542-й эскадрильи Фарнисс шел очень низко, и его обстреляли сначала немецкие, а затем советские зенитчики. Последние повредили ему хвостовое оперение, и летчику пришлось прыгать. До Мурманска Фарнисс добрался поездом.

Еще один "Спитфайр" списали после вынужденной посадки 19 апреля. 31 мая подразделение 542-й эскадрильи отозвали домой. Последний остававшийся у него самолет передали североморцам.

Таким образом, в общей сложности ВВС Северного флота приобрели семь PR IV. Впрочем, в документах флота записано 10, т.е. учитывались все "Спитфайры", перегнанные на советскую территорию, включая потерянные еще под британской юрисдикцией. Разведчик, сочтенный годным только на запчасти, похоже, тоже восстановили.

Все PR IV получила 28-я ораэ, влившаяся затем в 118-й орап. На 1 января 1943 г. она насчитывала три "Спитфайра", два СБ и четыре Пе-3. После перехода в руки советских летчиков машины не перекрашивались. Они сохраняли свою специфическую окраску и все обозначения, получив лишь тактические номера на оперении. Красные звезды же вместо английских кокард наносились сразу после прибытия в Ваенгу. С ними летали и английские, и советские пилоты
Logged
TISO
Full Member
***
Posts: 237



« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2014, 05:50:29 PM »

I'm hijacking the thread a bit. Any cour profiles and pic of Vaddasgaisa BP923 spit while in soviet service?

While the above article says they were not repainted i'm going as per pic of hevily weathered wing underside of BP923 still in norway: could the underside colour be soviet AMT repaint?


From other forum i found that serials should be AB132, AB423, AB427, BP884, BP889, BP891, BP917, BP923, BP926, BP929, BR658
Is this correct?

Interesting contribution on PR spits:

http://histomil.com/viewtopic.php?f=192&t=13294
Quote
A number of PR Mk.IVs were dispatched to Russia on three separate operations, Operation Orator (1942), Operation Source (1943) and Operation Tungsten (1944). After the last missions of Operation Orator, 15th October 1942, the RAF handed over the three remaining reconnaissance Spitfires, AB132, BP891 and BP923 to the VVS SF ? Air Force of the Northern Fleet. Later these aircraft were transferred to 2 GAP ? 2nd Guards Air Regiment and then 28 OAE ? 28th Independent Reconnaissance Squadron.

In all, a total over 229 PR Mk.IV were produced with only two (P9551 & P9552) Mk.1 airframes being converted, the others being based on the Mk.V fighter airframe (plus the ?D? wing). Also this variant was powered by various Merlin engines, starting with the Merlin 45 and then later the 46, 50, 55 and the 56.

from:
http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/p028.html
Quote
Serial   Mark      c/n     Fac    Eng    History
BP923  PR IVT   2741   HEA   M46   FF 28-3-42 9MU 30-3-42 1PRU 5-5-42 542S 30-9-42 Orator aircraft 17-11-42
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 06:36:02 PM by TISO » Logged
Troy Smith
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 380


« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2014, 03:40:40 AM »

Pics of wreck in Norwegian museum




Despite the caption, and in general the VVS during the GPW only repainted lend-lease aircraft if damaged or converted.   [though many seem to be repainted after the war]

British aircraft sent lend-lease were supplied with red stars.

But, the PR aircraft were handed over, so did they fly to Soviet union with RAF markings, or were they repainted first?   Even if they were, this is the wing underside, and note that PR Spitfires did not have underwing markings.  [except late on in the 2nd TAF, as seen in some of the pics in link below]

The problem with all these photos is there is nothing to compare the blue too. 

The book has some errors regarding colours used in it too, so I'd not trust the captions that much.

here there a few wartime colour photos of PR Spitfires
https://www.flickr.com/search/[email protected]&q=spitfire

PRU blue did fade badly when in use, as can be seen in these shots.



despite the pilot looking a bit fuzzy, this is a genuine colour shot, taken after A.E.A.F. [aka D-Day] stripes were painted out, so that is fresh PRU Blue, note the colour on the fin and tailplane!



So, a wing that spent 60 + years outside?   Most likely badly faded PRU blue.

Some photos of the wing with paint chips or reference colours would help.


Logged
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!