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Author Topic: Il-2 model 1943 late  (Read 7198 times)
66misos
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« on: October 14, 2014, 12:11:50 PM »

Hi,
I started another Il-2. According to the waralbum.ru those planes are from Stalingrad area in 1943.

Here is source photo:


Here is Massimo's profile of "15" from http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il-2m/il2m-late1943.htm:


Again, all comments and advices are more than welcome.
Regards,
   66misos
« Last Edit: October 17, 2014, 04:52:17 PM by 66misos » Logged

KL
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« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2014, 09:48:16 PM »

No regiment or any other information available? Huh

with red stars outlined in white and red and 3-colour camouflage these Il-2s are at least half a year late for Stalingrad... Huh

Regards,
KL
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66misos
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« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2014, 10:37:10 PM »

Hi KL,
there is no info about regiment neither at Massimo's Mig3 pages, nor at waralbum.ru.
I agree that description from http://waralbum.ru/143989/ is suspicious - "Soviet Il-2 Sturmoviks are starting for combat mission in Stalingrad area. Date of photo: January 1943, author: Georgy Zelma."
White outlined stars came on summer/autumn 1943.
However, ground crew wears gloves on that photo...
What is the ground? It looks like concrete, but I has doubts. Frozen surface? Huh Note that fissure on the ground.
Regards,
     66misos
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KL
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« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2014, 11:31:45 PM »

author's name helps!
G. Zelma did document Stalingrad battle.  Although these Il-2s have to be photographed later... Huh

two more photos attributed to Georgy Zelma:





Supposedly both photos were taken in December 1942, during Stalingrad battle.  http://sfw.so/index.php?newsid=1148868978
second image in better resolution



HTH,
KL
 
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66misos
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« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2014, 02:20:44 PM »

Hi KL,
thanks for nice photos. The Il-2 in the background of the second photo wears the same marking as the planes in the colorized photo.
Today I got info from airforce.ru forum:
"Это по времени никак не может быть Сталинград, поскольку на ближнем Иле направляющие РСов имеют обтекатели, а дальний Ил имеет длинную мачту антенны. И то и другое появилось в серии позже, чем зима 42/43.
Сейчас не могу найти ссылку на сайт, где утверждалось, что подобные ЭБО имели машины 10 шак (136 и 306 шад).
Там постилась вот такая картинка:"

Translated:
It cannot be Stalingrad in that time period, because on the closer Il-2 the guides of RSes have fairings and that distant Il-2 has a long antenna mast. Both features appeared in the series later than the winter 42/43.
Now I cannot find a link to a website, which stated that aircraft from 10shak (136 and 306 shad) had similar fast recognition marking.
There was posted this picture:


I am not sure about Il-2 technical features terminology. Jason, could you help, please?
Anyhow, according to the picture above the colorized planes should belong to the 995 shap of 306 shad (white propeller spinner), probably winter 1944/45. Huh
Thank you in advance.
Regards,
     66misos
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KL
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« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2014, 07:56:40 PM »

Hi Misos,
check this link for G.Zelma's photos (a lot of planes, and even more Socialist Realism!!!):
http://visualrian.ru/ru/site/search/?startfrom=0&orderby=earliest&q=%D0%93%D0%B5%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%B9+%D0%97%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BC%D0%B0&field=author

It is possible from this link to (roughly) trace Zelma's assignments during the GPW:

- Winter 1941/42 - Kola peninsula, Tihvin Front
- Autumn 1942-winter 1942/43 - Stalingrad
- Spring 1944 - liberation of Odessa
- February 1945 - end of Budapest Operation ("liberation")

We can also (roughly) date Il-2 photos made by Zelma:


This one was probably taken during the Stalingrad battle (Jan-Feb 1943).  The plane is in white winter camouflage and the red star doesn't have any outlines



These two photos are most likely made during the Budapest operation in February 1945.  Planes are in standard 3-color camouflage and we know that white winter camouflage hasn't been applied during the 1944/45 winter.

What is the ground? It looks like concrete, but I has doubts. Frozen surface? Huh Note that fissure on the ground.

It's most likely a captured Hungarian airfield, so concrete can't be excluded.  And definitely frozen and flat...  You should be familiar with the scenery and the weather in Hungary.   Smiley

HTH,
KL  


« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 08:05:14 PM by KL » Logged
KL
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« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2014, 08:41:13 PM »

Hi Misos,
Another clue that the photo was taken in Hungary:

989-й штурмовой Черновицкий ордена Кутузова авиационный полк
...
В феврале 1945 г. за отличия в Будапештской операции полк награжден орденом Кутузова III степени.


Quote
989 th Attack Chernivtsi Order of Kutuzov Aviation Regiment
...
In February 1945, for the distinction in the Budapest operation regiment was awarded the Order of Kutuzov III degree.


Il-2s on your photo really have white or red spinners.

HTH,
KL
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66misos
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« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2014, 04:51:51 PM »

Hi,
all aircraft are there:

Let's play with frozen ground and final details now.
Regards,
   66misos
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KL
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« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2014, 06:04:51 PM »

Hi Misos,
No "15" and plane behind it have either white or red spinner (there were no black-and white spinners).  IMHO, red is more probable - like on the following photo:



the closer plane has red spinner, plane behind it has white spinner.

Regards,
KL

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66misos
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« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2014, 09:03:41 PM »

Hi KL,
you are probably right with no."15" white spinner with the red band, not black one. I originally made it according to Massimo's profile, but after all that photos posted in the meantime I have doubts about black band.
Regards,
     66misos
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KL
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« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2014, 12:16:02 AM »

Hi Misos,
most likely no spinner bands on those Il-2s.  Spinners were coloured to provide fast recognition, not for decorative purposes.  IMHO, solid colour (as suggested by scheme from AIF) is more probable.
KL
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Ohotnyik
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« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2014, 08:48:21 PM »

Hello Konstantin,
There is the Hungarian plane to East , South ; and South-East from Budapest in Hungary.There were several small field airports in this area. As I know these were not covered by concrete. Only the Ferihegy airport was covered by concrete but this is 15 km from the centrum of Budapest . The authorised representative of the Red Army Mikl?s Steimetz?s car run to a mine neraby of this airport on the 29th of December 1944.
See below the list which and when were occupied the airports in Budapest and nearby Budapest:
24.Dec. 1944. Buda?rs
27.Dec. 1944. Ferihegy
30.Dec. M?ty?sf?ld
5.Jan. 1945. L?versenyt?r
5.Jan.1945. Csepel
The winter of 1944-45 was extremely snowy and cold. It was so cold that the Soviet reconnoitrers were able to pass ont he ice of the Danube and approach the Margaret Island. The wheather can change easily . Within 1-2 days we can have deep freese and thaw.If we consider the duration of the obsession of Budapest from 29th of Oct. 1944 till 13th of Feb. 1945 (108 days),than we could account all type of wheather circumstances.
There will be soon issued a book about the Hungarian activity of the Soviet fighters. The author is the guarantee that we will get the same quality and interesting work than we have already about the Hungarian activities of the 20 Bostons.
Istv?n
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66misos
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« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2014, 06:54:49 AM »

Hi,
this could be finished picture:

Black band on the no. 15 spinner is changed to green - it is darker than white on bw photo.
Snow is a bit dirty from underlying ground.
Regards,
    66misos
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 10:07:26 AM by 66misos » Logged

KL
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« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2014, 12:58:03 AM »

Hi Misos,
it looks somewhat unfinished...  Three details that you may want to change:

1.  I finally took a closer look at the original photo and I am quite sure that the Il-2 in the foreground is parked at the edge of concrete dispersal.  Its right wheel is actually on the concrete and its left wheel is on the grass.  The edge of the concrete runs parallel to lower edge of the photo and it is marked with white streak in front of the right wheel. No 15 is standing on the grass (darker than concrete in the foreground).  Concrete probably extends in front of two mechanics  so that the Il-2 parked in front of them (only its wheels are visible) is also standing on the concrete or something like a road.  This "road" actually starts just behind the shadow of the Il-2 which is in foreground.

Try to look at the photo from the distance; there are obvious lighter and darker patches of the ground. this could only indicate concrete and grass...

2.  Il-2 No 15 doesn't have white spinner; compare colour of its spinner with the colour of its tail markings and the spinner of the plane in the foreground.  Same with the plane behind 15 and the plane in far distance - their tail markings are bright white and their spinners are most likely red.  Plane in the foreground is the only plane with white spinner!

3.  RS rockets are probably olive green or brown-green.  Bombs were also painted in light green-gray or light blue-gray.

4.  My suggestion for the caption:  "Il-2s of the 989 shap and 995shap (10 ShAK) photographed during Budapest operation in Jan-Feb 1945.  Photo was taken by photo-correspodent G. Zelma probably at the Ferihegy Airport."

Regards,
KL
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 01:54:14 AM by KL » Logged
KL
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« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2014, 01:51:00 AM »

Hi Istv?n,

Thank you very much for the interesting information!  I was surprised that these two photos were taken in Hungary, but everything fits.
Considering that planes from two regiments can be identified on these two photos, this was probably a large airfield - Ferihegy Airport is quite possible.

Have you seen before these two photos were related to 1945 Budapest Operation?  Do you know of any other Il-2 photos from the winter/spring 1945 taken in Hungary?

regards,
KL
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