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Author Topic: Il-2 shot down  (Read 7950 times)
66misos
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« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2014, 04:38:51 PM »

Hi Massimo,
that picture is really very nice (and clear). I will surely consider it.
Anyhow, here is updates Il-2:

Country is not finished yet. I wanted to do it to get overall feeling and to check imperfection on the border plane/country.

Could anybody identify, please, uniforms of those soldiers? Luftwaffe grey-blue or infantry grey-green?
Thank you.
    66misos

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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2014, 06:07:19 AM »

Hi Misos,
I don't know for sure, but looks compatible with Wehrmacht.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2014, 09:01:13 PM »

Hi,
soldiers are dressed in Wehrmacht uniforms now, plus some other details added. Picture is closing to finish (I hope).

Caption under the picture could be something like "German soldiers posing on the belly landed Il-2 single-seater. The souvenir-hunters have removed parts of the skinning, leaving to see the yellowish putty for wood. Note the plane is without the fuselage red star. Probably summer 1941."
Any corrections are more than welcome.
Regards,
     66misos
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KL
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« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2014, 09:46:39 PM »

Probably summer 1941."[/i]

IMHO, not much there to suggest summer 1941...  It looks to me more plausible these photos were taken in spring/summer 1942.

Grass and background as you colorized them are way too green for summer, even for late spring. I would definitively add some dry grass color.

check here http://www.warcolorphotos.com/eastern-front

Also, less haze in far distance.  It looks like early morning...  Smiley

HTH,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2014, 09:49:10 PM »

Hi Misos,
the yellow putty on the wrecks of MiG-3 of Vesivema depot looks much brighter, more or less as zinc chromate.
I see a sort of shadow over the peeling off on the rear fuselage, perhaps the contour of the black band close to the tail should be revised there. Or maybe it is a part of a scarcely visible but big red star, I think to see the upper part of a brace.
The landing light on the left wing is visible, it should be colorized as the other one.
Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2014, 07:25:18 AM »

Hi KL and Misos,
can be that the photo is of 1942. Anyway, the plane was likely built in summer 1941. Besides the slightly armored canopy, I now see that the plane lacks of a thin stripe of sheet covering the upper part of the gap between the spinner and the cowling to prevent the access of snow and perhaps of rain. They started to add it in summer 1941; it was sometimes refitted to already built planes, in this case could be unpainted metal.
What do you think of the shadow of star I think to see? Its central part is just under the rear peeling off on the fuselage. It looks a bit smaller than expected and moved a bit to the top of fuselage, not reaching the blue part.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2014, 09:05:49 AM »

Hi Gents,
thanks for comments.

KL, very good link to color photos Grin I will use them as refference.

Massimo, check my post #11 of this thread at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1910.msg15773#msg15773
Hi,
these 2 photos are from Mig3 page and they both should show the colorized Il-2. There is no fuselage red star.





They better show plane itself, but they are in even lower resolution than colorized one.
Regards,
   66misos
plus another photo from Mig3 pages:


The photos show the same Il-2 from the different angles - there are no red stars on the fuselage.
But you are right about that "shadow over the peeling off on the rear fuselage close to the tail" - it looks like black band continuing from the oposit side of the fuselage.

So, I will update the picture:
- some dry grass color will be added,
- less haze in far distance, (yes, according to the shadows it is surely not in morning),
- the yellow putty a bit more brighter (color can vary),
- the black band close to the tail will be revised,
- the hole on the left wing from the broken landing light will be a bit colorized (it is in dark and shadow),
- photo "Probably spring/summer 1942"

Regards,
    66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2014, 12:46:37 PM »

Hi Misos and KL,
I'm in doubt on the year 1942. The plane was built in summer 1941, it was not updated with metal plates on its canopy nor with a thin metal stripe around the junction of the spinner, as was often made during overhaulings. So it's hard to believe that it was repainted.
Despite this, the paint is still semigloss, so it can't have been exposed for long to weathering, nor on its airfield nor on the field where it landed on its belly.
Another thing: on the other photo, I think to see an horizontal striping off extending on the rear damage. The discontinuity in color could give the idea of an horizontal brace of a star. I think you should add this damage in yellowish color.
Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 12:52:06 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
learstang
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« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2014, 05:34:09 PM »

I agree with Massimo that this is probably from the Summer of 1941, not 1942. It doesn't have the armour over the sliding canopy, which was retrofitted to early Il-2's. This is also a very early Il-2, with the starboard wing light, and the inboard-mounted ShVAK 20-mm cannons. Although it's certainly not impossible, it's unlikely that many very early Il-2's survived to the Summer of 1942. The absence of the plate (thin metal strip behind the spinner) behind the propeller is also indicative of a 1941 Il-2; this was retrofitted to those aeroplanes that didn't have it, and apparently in 1941 (I have photographs from 1941 which show this plate, sometimes unpainted for those that were added in the field).

Regards,

Jason
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66misos
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« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2014, 10:11:14 PM »

Hi,
today update - all changes according to my previous post.

Massimo, I do not know, but I do not see any trace of the red star on the fuselage on those pictures.
Interesting discussion about summer 1941 vs. summer 1942. Seems summer 1941 looks more probable.
Regards,
    66misos
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learstang
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« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2014, 10:30:31 PM »

That's looking good, 66misos! Another item indicating that this photograph is from the early days of Barbarossa is the casual attitude of the Germans; after a year of hard fighting (by the Summer of 1942), neither the war nor the machines they captured seemed so interesting and novel.

Regards,

Jason
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KL
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« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2014, 10:32:39 PM »

I agree that it is an "early Il-2" with ShVAK cannons and wooden rear fuselage.  I still can't figure out when wooden fuselage was introduced...   Huh wooden fuselage will probably determine the earliest date when this Il-2 may have been produced...

According to Rastrenin's books this was a "series Il-2 AM-28 with ShVAK cannons made by Zavod 18 in summer 1941"




no relationship to Zavod 381 (photos appear on Massimo's Il-2 model 1942 page)...

If  plane on two photos above has wooden fuselage, the plane on colorized photo displays factory applied green-black camouflage and it was made in summer/early autumn 1941 by Zavod 18 in Voronezh, before it was evacuated in November 1941...

Plane on colorized photo wasn't necessarily shot down on the same day when assembled - something like "summer/early autumn 1941" would be more likely the time when German photos were taken.

HTH,
KL

PS,  IMHO, the background should be dominated by yellow/light brown dry grass, i.e. autumn colors...  Wink  BTW, jackets and caps are more appropriate for Sept/October than for July/August.   Grin
During the summer, shirts were enough:



 
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 10:48:54 PM by KL » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2014, 11:36:03 PM »

Hi KL,
I went through all Eastern front pictures at http://www.warcolorphotos.com/eastern-front for inspiration and some "weighted average" and IMHO, unless we do not know exact date, this could be an acceptable compromise for "summer/early autumn":

Regards,
   66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2014, 06:17:20 AM »

Hi Konstantin,
I know that Rastrenin describes this plane as made by Z.18 in August 1941, but it looks questionable: the use of one star in this factory is strange, as the fact that the star on the tail is not centered on the rudder's hinge line.
The site where I found the information about Z.381 gives the factory serial of the plane, so I think that the author has found more reliable informations.
I don't know the exact date when Z.18 stopped to build metal rear surfaces. It was allowed to do so because at the start of production it hadn't appropriate facilities for working wood. Probably there was a period during the summer when planes were delivered both with metal and wood fuselages, and I suppose that metal ones ceased to be built around August.

As for the date, I think that summer/autumn 1941 is the most likely one for the image.

Hi Misos,
the ground looks good. Imho, an horizontal yellow peeling off is still missing.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2014, 09:06:03 AM »

Hi Massimo,
I am not sure that I understand what part of horizontal yellow peeling off you mean.
I enlarged photo of the rear part of the fuselage and played a bit with contrast and brightness to better distinguish individual shades:

Is that what you mean? Or, please, mark that part either by arrow or in the circle.
Regards,
   66misos
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