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Author Topic: La-5FN of V.I. Popkov  (Read 42117 times)
Renato71
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« on: June 27, 2007, 12:32:18 AM »

Hi,
I've decided to build La-5FN that was flown by V.I. Popkov.
I have following decals:
- from 1/72 kit Lavochkin La-5FN Soviet Aces Part I KPC-054 (I do not have instruction sheet)
http://www.aviapress.com/viewonekit.htm?KPC-054

- Eduard set "Russian WWII Aces" D72-002



Now, according to pics from the kit, Popkov's aircraft is gray-gray. Layout of victory stars on decals and on illustration differs slightly.

According to Eduard, aircraft is overall dark grey with blotches of light brow and dark green. But, layout of victory starts (and their size?) is just as on box illustration from above kit.

Not quite visible on my scans (was afraid of copyright issues) on Eduard sheet Gurads badge is (more like) gold-red and tigers head is in yellow, while on sheet from KP kit Guards badge is yellow - dark red, and tigers head is light brown.
Also, the size of number "01" on Eduard sheet is 11mm, while on KP sheet is 13mm. Stars on KP sheet also have additional red outline.

According to page:
http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Modeling/Lavochkin/La-5/Decals/Aeromaster_72036/
and:
http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/Various/Markings/Osprey15/index.php
says:
"… In the Winter of 1943-44 "Yellow 01" was finished originally in a solid AMT-11 livery, then was subsequently completed in the typical temperate two-color livery with AMT-12 over that. The stars on the fuselage and tail were yellow-bordered types, and the twin bands were done in white. The spinner at this time might still have been dark blue (it was this color originally), and the fin/rudder might not yet have had a white 'tab' on the tip. Popkov did indeed later fly another La-5FN numbered "01", but no useful photograph exists of this machine."

Looks to me that correct option would be to use Eduard decals, but with grey-grey or only light grey but no blotches?
Any supporting info?

One more thing… If Popkov flew on some other type of La-5/7, I would be grateful for any info on that. It would be nice to add some historical touch to this pilot.

Many thanks!

EDIT: Forgot to mention that on page http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/ModelGallery/la5_72.php there are pics of completed kits. The one that Ilya Grinberg completed has even different layout of victory stars, plus some of them are yellow...
« Last Edit: June 27, 2007, 12:46:04 AM by Renato71 » Logged

Renato
John Thompson
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« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2007, 01:59:45 AM »

Good luck. The Wings Palette page below gives no less than 8 different profiles for this aircraft, although some of them may be similar; I didn't look at all of them:
http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/336/1/2

To make matters even worse, Erik Pilawskii (on the CD "Radial Engined Lavochkins of WW2") argues that this aircraft was actually a
La-5F, NOT an FN!
http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/CD/laCD.html

This page has a couple of Popkov a/c, including a La-5F in overall green, which is debatable for sure, but has a great text inscription on it, I believe as a donation aircraft by a Moscow jazz band:
http://airwar.valka.cz/sssr/la_05/index.php?page=zbarveni

Here you can find "Canon UK"'s skins for the La-5 series - he went with the La-5FN, in AMT-11/12/7:
http://www.canons-skins.com/other/la5.htm

Details of this aircraft are so few, it's almost impossible for anyone to say you're completely wrong, no matter what scheme (and type!) you choose! You should consider buying Erik's CD, though. I have no idea what the "truth" is, but my vote would be to go with Erik's La-5F in AMT-11/12/7 theory, partly because I like the look of the F better than the FN!? Wink

I'm sorry - you're probably even more confused now than you were before. It does illustrate the point, though, that it's extremely difficult to be 100% sure about any details of such an aircraft, and all you can do is decide what suits you, after reviewing all the evidence. There are ongoing arguments over even well-photographed aircraft, never mind one such as this, for which only a few images seem to exist, taken from too close to show overall details of the camouflage scheme.

John
« Last Edit: June 27, 2007, 03:22:40 AM by John Thompson » Logged
Renato71
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« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2007, 03:20:48 AM »

Hi,
Thanks for reply. I've seen all of the profiles on Wings Palette. Somehow I do not think those brown-green schemes are correct.
The Czech link you provided with an aircraft donated by Jazz orchestra is magnificent! This is something worth considering.
This link of yours seems like one of most probable:
http://www.canons-skins.com/other/la5.htm

I forgot to include this photo as a bit of a reference:

(from page http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/popkov/popkov.htm)
(Also, there is yet another scheme with dark-yellow rudder and some white/grayish surfaces over lt grey or grey-grey cammo)

There is no red outline on the Star, and the outline looks a bit darker, so I presume that the outline was yellow. Hard to tell anything about the outline for victory stars. Number "01" could be in yellow as well, as there is the same grayish tone on the same height as on the Star (but it could also be a Popkov's shadow?). The shape of zero is like the one on the Eduard sheet, but KP is closer in height and thicknes (but I may be fooling myself, as KP's zero is closer to actual zeros). There are some blotches visible around victory stars, but it could mean anything. It could easily be a demarcation between two grey colors, I've seen a lot of photos on which demarcation runs just like on this pic.
No trace of? upper (4th) row of victory stars.
Btw, any way to cross-reference his decorations with a date? I think that he received the first Golden Star on 8 September 1943.

Is there no other photograph of Popkov's aircraft? Where did those blotched scheme come from anyway? I mean, what was used as a reference?

John, thanks for your considerion - I'm not more confused than usual, quite accustomed to this Grin

Regarding Erik Pilawski's CD, anyone got it? Or where to get it? If someone has it, please check if there is any photograph of Popkov's aircraft. I've found it on http://www.cafepress.com/cbrnp.103463812 , but 25USD for just one pic... And if I get that CD, I'll have to buy at least 50 Lavotchkins? Roll Eyes? Just take a look at that poster! Drool...

BR
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Renato
John Thompson
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« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2007, 03:31:40 AM »

The only photo on Erik's Lavochkin CD is the same one you show in your post, above. I had exactly the same thought as you - where DID that strange blotched scheme come from?!  Wink

John
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2007, 08:36:29 PM »

Hi, Smiley
Quote
This page has a couple of Popkov a/c, including a La-5F in overall green, which is debatable for sure, but has a great text inscription on it, I believe as a donation aircraft by a Moscow jazz band:
http://airwar.valka.cz/sssr/la_05/index.php?page=zbarveni
I had a look to the page.
To draw such a scheme, at least 3 good photos are needed. None of them is known... strange!
Besides, I'm very in doubt on the plane n.84 with lightnings, drawn on the same page. It resembles too much to this one
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/la5/chkalov/chkalow84.html
but the slogan is different.
Who knows if any image of the plane with the other slogan do exist, or is only a misinterpretation of a known VCh plane?
Massimo
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Renato71
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« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2007, 09:30:44 PM »

I saw a drawing of that plane in some book, but inscription was in Spannish with Latin letters, and there was a Star on the tail as well (lightning was under the Star).
I know about various bizzaro schemes, but there was always at least one photograph of it. This "puzzle" scheme is quite unique, and there is not a single photo to be found, not even any info about the source of this idea. The style of drawing reminds me to the style used in WW2 books from 60's and 70's (the books where Soviet aircraft were always pictured in brown-green cammo).

Regarding Popkov's aircraft, for now I vote that it is La-5FN, grey-grey cammo, yellow bordered star on fuselage.
But what about tail and undewing stars and "01"? Was there any other example of variously bordered stars?
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Renato
John Thompson
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« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2007, 02:22:11 AM »


One more thing? If Popkov flew on some other type of La-5/7, I would be grateful for any info on that. It would be nice to add some historical touch to this pilot.


According to the Russian Aces page...
http://wio.ru/aces/ace2.htm
...Popkov served with the 5GIAP and 739IAP, and flew the LaGG-3 , La-5 , La-5FN , and La-7. Perhaps researching those two squadrons could provide some further detail. Again, good luck!

John
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Audrius
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« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2007, 07:21:30 AM »

hello dears!
first of all here comes a better picture of Popkov's 01:



So it is obvious that the star is outlined in red.  I don't think there is any yellow color on this a/c. Star and digit is in standard white.

Regarding camo. IMHO it it's AMT11/12/7 as was a standard that time when Popkov flew this La-5. Thanks to Bomber from Russian VVS forum we have a nice skin for this a/c which imho resembles the a/c quite accurate.



 Of course from the picture posted above it's hard to decide about all camo, but having in mind that 5giap had White spinner and front-edge of engine cowling in white as a regiment's distinguishing signs (I am not sure about white "cap" on the tail). Besides said before, assuming pictures of others La-5 from 5giap that gives a wider view on camo, we could have a general understanding about camo layout.

Here comes an interesting "document"- a color profile signed and revised by Popkov himself, dedicated to Milos Vestsik, known Lavochkin expert by  his publication by MBI , that I would recommend you very much.



This profile was posted by Milos last year on Russian VVS forum.

Good luck modeling this nice a/c!
BR Audrius
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 07:23:16 AM by Audrius » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2007, 03:42:06 PM »

Hi Audrius, Smiley
thank you for sharing these interesting informations.
About the light outline of the star visible on the photo: I see that the contrast between it and the white stripes is minimal in the upper part, and much stronger on the lower part. On this base, I guess that the color of the outline is silver, not white.
Massimo
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Audrius
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« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2007, 04:00:47 PM »

hi Massimo
regarding to silver- imho it is no way in this case. The different shade is due to the natural light effect, that is all.

The other thing - about white cap on the tail. On the picture above in the background we can notice other La-5 most probably from same unit and it doesn't carry any white cap on the tail.
I don't have idea where from came this white cap on the Bomber's skin. Need to ask him.

BR Audrius
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Renato71
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« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2007, 06:04:44 PM »

hello dears!
first of all here comes a better picture of Popkov's 01:

So it is obvious that the star is outlined in red.? I don't think there is any yellow color on this a/c. Star and digit is in standard white.

Regarding camo. IMHO it it's AMT11/12/7 as was a standard that time when Popkov flew this La-5. Thanks to Bomber from Russian VVS forum we have a nice skin for this a/c which imho resembles the a/c quite accurate.

 Of course from the picture posted above it's hard to decide about all camo, but having in mind that 5giap had White spinner and front-edge of engine cowling in white as a regiment's distinguishing signs (I am not sure about white "cap" on the tail). Besides said before, assuming pictures of others La-5 from 5giap that gives a wider view on camo, we could have a general understanding about camo layout.

Here comes an interesting "document"- a color profile signed and revised by Popkov himself, dedicated to Milos Vestsik, known Lavochkin expert by? his publication by MBI , that I would recommend you very much.

This profile was posted by Milos last year on Russian VVS forum.

Good luck modeling this nice a/c!
BR Audrius

WOW! Audrius, thank you so much fo rthis amazing infos and pics! I feel like Alan Rickman in Die Hard, even started to sing "Ode to Joy"  Grin

Regarding the color of the outline and the number, I have to agree with John and have some suspicions about being it in white. Shades are quite different. Hard to imagine that aging or color mixture could have such an impact on shades in grayscale....
Btw, the plane in the background is also interesting. There is a large star on the tail, but none is visible (to my pooor eyes) on the fuselage, unlees it is without outline? Stripes are not in the same position, and there is no additional coloring on tail.

About a color profile signed and revised by Popkov himself... Well, I was aircraft mechanic on MiG-21 in Croatian Air Force (in late phase during Independance war), and from a first hand experience I know that pilots payed little attention to exact coloring of the aircraft they flew. Ground crew knew much more about particular aircraft than any of the pilots. Ie, in my time there were about 12 a/c, and there were about 4 different layouts in switches connected to electronic equipment (my field). I had to guide about half of the pilots around starting procedure for radio on the a/c I was assigned to. Also, each mechanic had a notebook with tips for a particular a/c.
So, with all respect to Popkov

PS - Any exact translation of what is written in the revision? My russian is a bit upolished, but as far I can tell he says:
"On this aircraft [-don't know-] Secon World War, from 1943 to the victory [rest don't know]"

Thanks again!
BR
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Renato
Renato71
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« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2007, 06:33:28 PM »

Got it!
Here it is:
Decription in Cyrillic
"Уважаемому Milos Vestsik с благодарностью на память.
На этом самолете я не знал поражений в течение длительного периода Великой Отечественной войны (с 1943 до победы). "Жеребчик" лихо вывозил из самых трудных периодов воздушных боев. Подпись. 26.06.03"

"To dear Milos Vestsik with gratitude to remember.
With this plane I was unbeateble for a long time of WW2 (1943-45). "Stallion" sucessfully carried me out of many hard episodes of air combat. Signature. 26.06.03"

"To respected Milos Vestsik with gratitude for(?) memory.
On this plane i havent been defeated during continous period of Great Patriotic War(Since 1943 and until Victory). *Stallion* dashingly took me out of the hardest periods of dogfights."

Many thanks to Laivynas and DimASS from lockon.ru for respective translations.
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Renato
John Thompson
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« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2007, 02:06:03 AM »

This is a very informative thread (thanks for starting it, Renato!), and learning that Popkov had given his fighter the nickname "Stallion" adds a great personal touch, thanks to Audrius, for the signed image, and to Renato, for the translation.

The puzzle is still, where did the images originate which show the odd mottled camouflage on the Eduard decal sheet instructions, plus the Guards emblem and the tiger's head on the cowling? And what about that all-green La-5F with the donation inscription on it?

Call me difficult (or worse) if you like, but I'm still tempted by Erik Pilawskii's La-5F theory for "Stallion/White 01", though...? Wink

John
« Last Edit: June 29, 2007, 02:08:39 AM by John Thompson » Logged
Audrius
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« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2007, 08:06:00 AM »

hello
regarding Eduard's scheme- when did it appear, how long ago?

Most probably the Guards sign and perhaps the lion head was taken from Osprey issue on Aces. It shows Popkov's La-5 nr.01 with Guard sign on the cowling.
But no such picture was traced so far. Some people on Russian speaking forums doubts as well. It's a speculation.

I do agree to Renato, that pilots could not remember all fact regarding camo, especially of 60 and more years ago! But there are Aviation industry norms and standards of that time along with the vintage pictures survived , IMHO is the main source of the camo to be rebuild.

As to the different shades of white color on the star and fuselage strips. I do agree there is a difference in that,but don't think there is another color (yellow, silver or other) involved. Could be that the strips were painted on the field just masking a star.

BR Audrius
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marluc
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« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2007, 11:31:09 PM »

Quote
As to the different shades of white color on the star and fuselage strips. I do agree there is a difference in that,but don't think there is another color (yellow, silver or other) involved. Could be that the strips were painted on the field just masking a star.

Hi everybody:
I agree with Audrius,the star and number are of the same shade of white,and different from the fuselage strips.The white paint looks newer on these bands.
I like to see a good an extensive thread as this one.Greetings:

Martin

 
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