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Author Topic: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"  (Read 44672 times)
barneybolac
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« on: March 22, 2015, 01:54:26 AM »

Was looking for information about one of his La-5's & I came across these profiles of all the aircraft he flew.



I am familiar with a few of these #31 & #85 were unknown to me.

Any one have other photos of these lesser known aircraft of his?

I found this one photo that I think maybe #85? Seems to have some kind of a possible stripe on the wing maybe a wear mark of some kind.

« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 08:57:35 PM by barneybolac » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2015, 07:47:42 AM »

Hi,
strange profiles, I doubt that 85 and 31 were painted that way. The pattern of 31 resembles that of grey-grey planes.
The plane on the photo is a La-5FN, according to the exhaust flap. The thing on the wingroot really resembles  a painted stripe, ruined by chalking.
Regards
Massimo
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barneybolac
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« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2015, 08:20:44 AM »

Hi,
strange profiles, I doubt that 85 and 31 were painted that way. The pattern of 31 resembles that of grey-grey planes.
The plane on the photo is a La-5FN, according to the exhaust flap. The thing on the wingroot really resembles  a painted stripe, ruined by chalking.
Regards
Massimo


Looking closer at the photo it has to be taken in 1944 he has two HSU medals on.
The #85 profile is from an earlier time 1943.
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66misos
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« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2015, 03:26:20 PM »

Hi,
IMHO those profiles at least suspicious.
Look at this article about his "27" http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Markings/Kozhedubs_White27/index.php, especially section "Recollections: Sergey Kramarenko".
Moreover, author of profiles is A.Stankov, seems to be the same Stankov as commented here http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1840.msg15344#msg15344.
Regards,
  66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2015, 04:41:03 PM »

Hi,
a comment from Timoshenko:
Quote
это рисовал А.Станков - он лично разговаривал с Кожедубом, если там и есть какие-то ошибки то думаю они не существенны.
A.Stankovdrew it  - he personally talked to Kozhedub, if there is any error,  I think that they are not significant.
Regards
Massimo
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learstang
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« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2015, 05:19:10 PM »

Those are some interesting profiles. "85" looks like it's painted in our old friend "Factory Green". And "31" - two-greens? Suspicious to say the least. Even if they were done from Kozhedub's recollections, memories without other evidence to back them up are unreliable; just ask any attorney. How long after the fact was he asked about these aircraft?

Regards,

Jason
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2015, 08:33:42 PM »

To tell the truth, I don't trust too much the recalls relative to camo colors. Memoirs are good for things as the colors of spinners and numbers, made to be noticed, but the camo colors are made to pass unobserved.
Regards
Massimo
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learstang
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« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2015, 11:42:29 PM »

To tell the truth, I don't trust too much the recalls relative to camo colors. Memoirs are good for things as the colors of spinners and numbers, made to be noticed, but the camo colors are made to pass unobserved.
Regards
Massimo

Very good point, Massimo.

Regards,

Jason
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66misos
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« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2015, 12:06:00 PM »

Hi,
a comment from Timoshenko:
Quote
это рисовал А.Станков - он лично разговаривал с Кожедубом, если там и есть какие-то ошибки то думаю они не существенны.
A.Stankovdrew it  - he personally talked to Kozhedub, if there is any error,  I think that they are not significant.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,
I do not know what is and what is not significant error, but:
1.) both wartime profiles of La-7 "27" show white spinner. Compare it with this photo:

although, board number is not visible here, so...

2.) both wartime profiles of La-7 "27" are decorated. This is from Kramarenko's recollections from the link I posted above:
"In 1997 a series of interviews with S.M. Kramarenko were published in Czech magazine Aero Plastic Kit Review, starting it seems with issue no.64. The interviewer, S. Makarovich, asked Kramarenko specifically about service in the 176 GAIP, and Kozhedub's aircraft, which the latter claims to have piloted after Kozhedub left the Regiment. The following excerpts are from Kramarenko's answers, and were kindly provided and translated by Michal Sekula.
"Sometime during preparation of the 'Carpathian-Visla' Operation (Nov-Dec 1944) the 176 GIAP received new La-7 fighter planes...."
If this is so, then it is indeed very strong evidence in favour of the single-colour interpretation of "White 27". This testimony may explain just why so many 176 GIAP La-7s are finished in this way.
"(Following a mission on 11 Feb/45) ...Kozedub?s plane was slightly damaged ? two hits to the fuselage and one hit to the tail."
If this damage were notable, could it explain some kind of repainting? Could it explain the repainting below the cockpit that might appear on the port fuselage? Could it explain a reason for adding AMT-12 in a two-tone application?
Kramarenko mentions further that he received Kozhedub's "White 27" after the Deputy Commander was ordered to return to Moscow for the May Day celebrations. He states that he piloted this aircraft until the end of the War, and that it carried no "...small 'kill' stars nor three Hero of the Soviet Union 'Gold Medals' on the side....", which he asserts were painted later at the Frunze Academy.
"

3.) La-5F - color/shade of the board no. "14" does not differ from the star white outline. Or, at least it is not reflective like silver "14" in the profile:


Regards,
   66misos
« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 12:50:33 PM by 66misos » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2015, 02:26:29 PM »

Hi Misos,
of course, the spinner on the operative plane was red. White, if any, could be some repainting before the war after the plane became an icon.
I remember the photo from the other side, with the emblem on a dark rectangle. My idea is that the plane was camouflaged as all, it was faded at the date of that photo session, and the photographer understood that the emblem would have been nearly unvisible on the original background, so he asked to paint a contrasting background. I can't say the date of the photo session.
About the photo of 14, I would say that the number is somewhat darker than the star, I checked with the instruments of Photoshop confirming this. But it doesn't seem silver. I can't say if it's a darker white (seems strange, if both numbers and stars were added in factory) or yellow or what else.
Perhaps the plane was born with a plain red star and the white outline is a later addition... but it looks too accurate. Perhaps it was accurately repainted for the photo session.
Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2015, 02:30:57 PM »

Hi, Vitaliy has asked to Stankov, that confirms a silver number on that plane.
Well, if it was not silver the day of the photo, maybe it was repainted later? Who knows? Certaily it didn't come out from the factory in silver.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2015, 05:08:03 PM »

Hi Massimo,
after looking at photos again and again, yes, on that last photo color of "27" is slightly different/darker than white outline of the star. Huh

Here I found another photo:

Seems to be the same plane like this one (in the different time) - it is La-7, upper part of the red triangle is visible on the engine cowling and metal plate has similarly dirty edges on the both photos:


...I remember the photo from the other side, with the emblem on a dark rectangle...
I never saw such picture, event on the Russian pages. Even old afterwar reconstruction in Monino did not have any emblem. I wonder if it was authentic.
Regards,
   66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2015, 09:41:03 PM »

Hi, it was on the article of EP on Kozedub's plane. It resembled the photo below, perhaps it was the same but I think to remember that it showed a small piece of the tail.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2015, 10:40:45 AM »

Hi,
I have found this photo at http://aviadejavu.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft19957.htm

Description uder photo:
"A little-known photograph from the personal archive of triple Hero of the Soviet Union Ivan Nikitovich Kozhedub."

If Kozhedub is that guy in the middle, having "only" 2 HSU Gold medals, then photo should have been taken before August 18, 1945, when he received the 3rd HSU order, but apparently after the WWII.

Well-known photo but in much better quality:

Board number "27" is apparently outlined.


Description:
"La-7 fighter from 176 giap Huh at the airfield in Germany. The second from the right is armed with three B-20 guns."
Note the second from the left - it looks like single color (AMT-11) painting on the upper surfaces.

Hi Barneybolac,
may be it would be worth to rename this thread to "Ivan Kozhedub Lavochkins" or "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7" as it covers broader area than only La-5.

Regards,
   66misos

PS: Massimo, your memory is good. Wink
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 11:28:06 AM by 66misos » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2015, 05:05:37 PM »

Hi Misos, hi all,
interesting images, so the plane was painted as described by the decals sheet when in Frunze academy. It's strange that they left the plane to another pilot for months, then took it, repainted it and venerated it as an icon.  Couldn't it be that a second plane '27' was painted to represent the original one?

The photo of planes of 176 giap is particularly interesting. Now that I see, the color of the landing gear doors of n.21 is much darker than on other planes, and seems to fit the uppersurfaces. Couldn'it be that was painted AMT-11 overall? The same can be suspected for the third plane.
Regards
Massimo
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