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"Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"
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Author Topic: "Ivan Kozhedub La-5 & La-7"  (Read 96673 times)
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #75 on: June 02, 2015, 04:35:37 PM »

Hi Flavio,
thank you for your interesting suggestions.
About the triangle, you are right about two examples with surely curved lines.
For the plane of Kozhedub, I've the impression that the shape could be straight for the first 23 of its length, then becomes shightly concave close to the rear angle. I can't exclude that the shape was preserved under the additional marks made in Frunze acanemy. Looking at the rear part of the fuselage in the latter photo, I suppose that the original camo was still preserved at that date (but i can't be sure).
About the blue outline, it seems to have been a factory standard: the only known numbers on two recovered wrecks of La-5 and 7 have blue outlines. Eventually, red outlines or no outlines could more likely be due to repaintings.
Your note about the white triangle on the tail is particularly interesting. It was there at the date of the famous photo with the medals and starlets, but I can't say before.
Anyway, here is another plane that seems to have the triangle:

Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 04:42:47 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
Flavio
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« Reply #76 on: June 03, 2015, 10:32:11 PM »

Good point Massimo, I hope we will be able to see more war time photos about planes from 174 GIAP.

In the mean time I post this picture I found on the website EtoRetro.ru (unfortunately the best resolution is available to VIP members only).
Altough it shows famous La-7 "27" post war, in this photo seems visible a demarcation line of two different tones of colors behind the cockpit; could it be the proof that the plane was camouflaged in two tones of grey?
 
Flavio

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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #77 on: June 04, 2015, 06:45:49 AM »

Hi Flavio,
thank you for posting this image, it's new for me.
The plane looks camouflaged, even if the photo is unclear, however, it looked camouflaged on the best known photo with his mates.
The number seems not outlined. This would be a new information, if we can trust the quality of the image.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #78 on: June 04, 2015, 09:10:48 PM »

Hi Flavio,
very interesting photo.
It really looks like two-grey camouflage:

1.) AMT-12 Dark grey demarcation line under the cockpit is not just behind the windshield, like usually seen on the other la-7s:


but in the middle of the moving part of the canopy, just like on this "Pokryshkin's" La-7:


so dark area under the cockpit on the "27" does not necessarily mean nonstandard:


2.) Dark area at the wing root & trailing edge resembles NKAP 1943 standard AMT-12 field like here:


or this La-5FN:


And vice versa, the light are on the wing root does not look like the metal plate reflection only:

Kozhedub has still 2 HSU Gold medals, e.g.it is before August 1945. Medals on his chest and pilotka look exactly like here:

Also dirty and/or corrosion on the metal plate looks very similar. These two photos could be from one photo session.

And here is another photo from etoretro.ru

- It is apparently La-7
- it has two-grey camouflage (here is AMT-11/AMT-12 demarcation line under the cockpit just behind the wind shield,
- whole engine cowling from the nose to the second metal belt is evenly dark - painted red?
Regards,
   66misos
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 09:23:32 PM by 66misos » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #79 on: June 04, 2015, 10:44:53 PM »

Hi Misos,
If I don't miss, we have already seen another photo of this plane.

It's certainly not the same plane of 27, it had 3 slots on the side plate, and the dark camo band has a different position.
Note the recognition band on the wing.
So, now it seems that Kozhedub was photographed close to (at least) two different planes.

By the way, plane n.12 is extremely beautiful. Do you know more on this beast?
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #80 on: June 05, 2015, 09:39:16 AM »

Hi Massimo,
yes, "27" and this one seems to be two different aircraft. I think so according to the different position of the demarcation line between AMT-11 and AMT-12 under the cockpit and different number of the slots on the metal plate.

Compare La-7 no. "27":


with this La-7:




Regards,
   66misos


PS: Plane no. "12" - La-7 belonged to the 937 iap /322 iad Lt. Col. F.M. Kosolapov. Picture taken at Prague-Kbely airport in June 1945.


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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #81 on: June 05, 2015, 04:04:25 PM »

Hi Misos,
thank you  for the informations on n.12.
I think that the dark thing on the nose of this Kozhedub's plane is the camouflage, not a red band.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #82 on: June 05, 2015, 05:14:01 PM »

Hi Massimo,
you are probably right. The very left part of the cowling, e.g. the part the closest to the spinner is lighter:

which could be AMT-11 area.

Here is some other info from Milos Vestsik at http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/0/co/163982.htm
He has 27 photos from 176 giap. On 10 photos should be red triangles or white areas on the tail. It is possible to identify no. 27 (Kozhedub), 18 (Kumanichkin)
56 and 28. Some red triangles are without white outline.
There are known photos of Kozhedub with 2 HSU Gold medals in front of La-7 without mentioned marking elements. MV thinks that those photos are from the Kozhedub's visit of the Zavod 381 and those La-7s have no relation to 176 giap.
M.Bykov: it remains to assume that red triangles were not painted on all La-7 in 176 giap.

Regarding group of La-7 flying over Berlin, it is necessary to ask Valery Romanenko. MV does not think that they are from 176 giap in April 1945.


According to MV and M. Bykov also this photo is apparently after-the-war, probably from 1946 and those La-7s probably also do not belong to the 176 giap:


And regarding no. 10 with white quick-recognition marking (QRM) MV still thinks that it belonged to 159 giap, not to 176 giap.

Note the little anchor painted above the right arm of the red star on the tail. However, according to M.Bykov aircraft belonged to the Baltic Fleet had whole tails painted white.

Although this QRM seems to be also white, it has the shape and dimension slightly different from no. 10:


Regards,
   66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #83 on: June 05, 2015, 05:40:22 PM »

Hi Misos,
all this is very interesting. Thank you for sharing these informations. Il like n.10 very much.
About the ring of the first plane, it could be AMT-11 but it could also be red, seem very common.
About 2/3 of the profiles on the book of Vestsik have red ring and spinner. Please, ask him if he thinks that it was painted in factory.
Regards
Massimo
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barneybolac
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« Reply #84 on: June 05, 2015, 06:15:48 PM »

Hi Misos,
all this is very interesting. Thank you for sharing these informations. Il like n.10 very much.

Regards
Massimo

There is another photo of this aircraft.

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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #85 on: June 05, 2015, 06:39:29 PM »

Hi Rodney,
thank you very much. It had something known...
Regards
Massimo
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Flavio
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« Reply #86 on: June 06, 2015, 06:32:19 PM »


... Milos Vestsik has 27 photos from 176 giap...... It is possible to identify no. 27 (Kozhedub)....


Dear 66misos,

this information is very interesting; can you keep in touch with Mr.Vestsik and ask him if the photos about no.27 of Kozhedub are made after the war or during the war period. I suspect in fact that the white rudder was added after the war at the same time of the white spinner.

Thanks,
Flavio
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #87 on: June 07, 2015, 08:38:55 PM »

Hi,
I can't be sure, but this plane looks to have a landing light in the left wing, just as plane n.40 of 16 giap. Am I wrong?
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #88 on: June 11, 2015, 11:10:45 PM »

Hi,
this info I have found in the book Lagg & Lavochkin Aces of World War 2 by George Mellinger, Osprey:
The 19 iap became 176 giap in August 19, 1944 when rearmed to new La-7... Kozhedub arrived to this regiment 3 days latter together with other pilots...
On August 23, 1944 Kozhedub found his La-7 "27", the aircraft in which he arrived to the 176 giap, painted red on the engine cowling and white on the tail to look like other machines in this regiment...
Regards,
   66misos
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Flavio
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« Reply #89 on: June 11, 2015, 11:58:59 PM »


...On August 23, 1944 Kozhedub found his La-7 "27", the aircraft in which he arrived to the 176 giap, painted red on the engine cowling and white on the tail to look like other machines in this regiment...
Regards,
   66misos

Thank you 66misos,

undoubtedly this information may help. However photographic evidences are the only reliable proof; very often these kind information are based on veterans memoirs and the grade of accuracy is not so high.

For example read what is quoted at pag.66 of the book you are referring (Lagg & Lavochkin Aces of World War 2):

"....a new La-5FN. To Kozhedub?s surprise, he was informed that this aircraft was a dedication machine specifically assigned to him. It was marked Imeni Geroya Sovetskogo Soyuza podpoklovnika Koneva, N. (in honour of Hero of the Soviet Union Lt Col N Konev). The donor had requested that it be given to the ?best pilot at the front?. Eventually, when Kozhedub was transferred to 176 GIAP, Imeni Koneva was flown by Pavel Bryzgalov until Kirill Evstigneev returned from hospital, the latter then being deemed to be the ?best pilot? in the regiment. This La-5FN must surely be the most distinguished aircraft in the history of Soviet aviation ..."

We know however that the plane was in fact a La-5F model, not a FN model (also the color profile is wrong).
About this plane however (and the different FN model flown by Evstigneev) we will dedicate a specific topic... Wink

Flavio
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