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Author Topic: about 1941/1943 paint scheme: de la Poype's yak-1 (normandie-niemen)  (Read 10063 times)
xan
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« on: August 21, 2015, 11:04:43 AM »

Hello I will soon start a new project, as always a normandie-niemen's plane, the de la Poype's yak-
We know three pics of it:







as you see hard to find the paint scheme.

I looked for other NN  yak-1's pics to have an idea, but there are not good quality pics...

those are the best:



not very helpfull...

i'm loocking for VVS pics too....

Anyway, I know about the 6 may 1941 official directive:



in your website , massimo you show correct official scheme pics, and inverted colors same scheme one.

Have this scheme been applied (on yak-1) as strictly as has been the 1943 one?

i'm interested in any information about the 1941 scheme on yak-1, thanks!

Xan



 
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 05:29:48 PM by xan » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2015, 10:37:09 PM »

Hi,
one more photo here:
http://airfield.narod.ru/yak/yak-1/yak-1_color5.html
A part of the wing looks very light.
I don't know for the camo.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2015, 01:22:53 AM »

Hi Xan,

it would help if you date photos (when and where...)



Note that the fuselage star doesn't have white outlines - it means that red stars have been painted before September 1943.  It has to be one of Yak-1s model 1943 (aka Yak-1b or Yak-1M) and those were all camouflaged in standard black-green scheme.  Like these:

 

Plane No 6 above also had shark mouth.  it was flown by another N-N pilot, Albert Durand:









A part of the wing looks very light.

IMHO, it's white MK-7 applied in irregular patches, like Galchenko's LaGG-3.


 

Cheers,
KL
« Last Edit: August 22, 2015, 01:48:36 AM by KL » Logged
xan
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« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2015, 08:50:23 AM »

it would help if you date photos (when and where...)
I don't know when and wwhere were those pics taken...
but it's in summer 1943...
of course, camo is green and black , but I don't know about the scheme...
as far as I know there was no standart scheme...
I tried to look for ather NN yak-1 to inspirate myself but there no relevant pics...

the firt pic you (and massimo) shows is not the de la Poype plane. there is a confusion with this picture, but persons are diferent, in the same propagandistic situation



Quote
Plane No 6 above also had shark mouth.  it was flown by another N-N pilot, Albert Durand:
yes with Mah? and Lefevre at his side, what a team!
infortunaly, camo scheme can't be see in this picture...

I don't believe too much at white stripe like a lagg-3, we never see that in a yak...
but the white stripe in the nose are quite strange. it's often say that it's winter camo residue, but it's not sure and not very logical i my opinion...(but I have not better explication...)

Xan


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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2015, 02:55:25 PM »

Quote
I don't believe too much at white stripe like a lagg-3, we never see that in a yak...
Looks a bit out of season. Can the white thing on the ground and on the cover be snow? It's somewhat uncoherent with dresses and with sitting playing chess. The light stripes and patching on the nose could be an attempt to match some animal related to mouth and eyes. One of the planes seem to have felin moustaches painted on.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2015, 03:50:30 AM »

Hi Xan,

I have checked internet and my books and it looks that this is early spring 1943 - very beginning of the GC "Normandie" combat employment...

Following photo is dated "February-March 1943" Ivanovo east of Moscow where French group had 3-month training on Yak-1s.  Note Yak-1s  in all white winter camouflage:



after the training, Normandie squadron was sent to the front and became operational on March 22, 1943.  It was based on Polotnyaniy Zavod airfield (Kaluga region).  It shared airfield with Pe-2s of the 261 bap:



Check this link http://galyagorshenina.livejournal.com/52727.html and you will find exact date when French and Soviet pilots were photographed with 261 bap Pe-2 and white Yak-1s in background:







It says April 8th, 1943. Note that the ground was still covered in snow!  Also note remnants of the winter camouflage on Pe-2 (white MK-7 had just been washed of the plane)...

From these photos you can see that Yak-1s remained in white winter camouflage at least till early April 1943.

IMHO, we can see snow on the ground on this photo too:



Say, mid-April, it was cold enough for patches of snow on the ground and warm enough for jackets...  Smiley

Another clue: on several photos with Durand we can see Normandie's first commander Jean Tulasne.  He was KIA in mid-July.  So, photos of shark-mouthed Yak-1s are most likely made in spring 1943.  Light patches on de la Poype's Yak-1 could well be remnants of the white winter camouflage!!!  

HTH,
KL
« Last Edit: August 28, 2015, 04:07:23 AM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2015, 07:16:44 AM »

Looks persuasive.
A note for Misos: in the same page there is also a partial image of a P-39 with apparently disruptive camouflage and US serial. Too partial for a profile, I fear.
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/galyagorshenina/52268261/785722/785722_original.jpg
Regards
Massimo
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xan
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« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2015, 09:59:16 PM »

Thank you Kontantin to take time and search those pics.
The pics with the pe-2 are taken in the very first operation of normandie niemen in Polotniany field.
I knew only the first pics, the three others are wonderfull! they will go to my archives at once!
according to the regiment notebook, there were operation with P-2 the 4, 5 and 6 of avril but not the 8. but it doesn't matter.
I will like
I knew that the yaks lost their winter camouflage in the last week of april 43.

Xan
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xan
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« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2015, 10:28:49 PM »

I find more details about those pics.

the Pe-2 belongs to the 261BAP and the pics seems to have been taken in the 5th of april. (perhaps the 8th in the orthodoxe calendar?)

here are two more pics:



the yak-1 seems to be the Tulasne's red 10.

here is Tulasne, with Dymtchenko comandant:



it's a long time I want to do a Pe-2
those pe-2 could be in model project. But I don't know very much about Pe-2 different versions
if someone does know something about this period 261 BAP pe-2 i'm interested too.
I imagine them green and black , and perhaps no machine guns behind?

Xan

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KL
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« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2015, 12:04:35 AM »

Hi Xan,

thanks for the interesting photos!  Ground looks waterlogged and muddy, not covered in snow on most of those photos with Pe-2.  Thawing started on March 26th according to "French Eagles, Soviet Heroes" book...

Following text from "French Eagles, Soviet Heroes" book fits almost perfectly with a photo from your first post:





This would be the first combat action of the "Normandie" squadron together with 18 giap Yak-7s.  It was April 17, 1943, Mosalsk airfield.

Two photos from Yak-1 book from S. Kuznetsov:



HTH,
KL
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 12:34:55 AM by KL » Logged
xan
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« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2015, 04:00:53 PM »

Hi mister K!
I'm reading again de la Poype's memories:


He writes it  in 2007, but the reminds are quite precise.

about the wather of the day of 5th of april , he says: "the sky is low with big black clouds. the temprature increase have accelerated the thaw, wich is very impressive..."

This would be the first combat action of the "Normandie" squadron together with 18 giap Yak-7s.  It was April 17, 1943, Mosalsk airfield.

I don't thing it's really the first operation with the 18GIAP, because in is big talking about an operation the 3rd of march, he says his mecanic, Marcelinhave just painted the shark mouth insperated by the flying tigers...
so this pic has been taken surely after the 3rd of March...

I'm trying to put in a time line the de la Poype first campaign.



Xan
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Pascal
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« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2015, 02:30:24 PM »

Hi Xan,

the 3rd of march

Would you say march or may ? You wrote march in your post but in your timeline, you says may... It's important ! Wink

Couldn't be Yaks washed just after the Pe-2s in the same first days of april ?

Pascal
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KL
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« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2015, 06:11:05 PM »

Hi Xan,

I'm reading again de la Poype's memories:
... about the wather of the day of 5th of april , he says: "the sky is low with big black clouds. the temprature increase have accelerated the thaw, wich is very impressive..."

this all makes sense:  the thaw started at the end of March and it took few weeks for all that snow to melt. It was wet, muddy, slushy and with patches of snow throughout April.  Patches of snow were possible even in early May.

that said, photo below has to be dated as April or early May



there is clearly snow on the ground and there is absolutely no way that the photo was taken in June as your timeline suggests.  You should move that photo in April or early May and it has to be under Mosalsk airfield...  Smiley

In books that I have, 17 April action is described as a joint operation with 18 giap:  6 "Normandie" Yak-1s and 6 18 giap Yak-7s.
3 May action is described as a patrol: only Lefevre's and de la Poype's Yak-1s .  18 giap Yak-7s are not mentioned at all...

Regardless of dates, which are actually very close, and evidence from de la Poype's memoirs (white winter camouflage washed end of April and shark mouth painted just before May 3rd,), I still believe that lighter patches on de la Poype's Yak-1 are remnants of the winter camouflage.  Couple of weeks are acceptable accuracy for memoirs written 60 years later, winter camouflage may have been removed gradually etc.

Regards,
KL
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 06:22:15 PM by KL » Logged
xan
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« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2015, 04:41:40 PM »

Would you say march or may ? You wrote march in your post but in your timeline, you says may... It's important ! Wink
Pascal , you know me don't you? of course it's may and not march...
Couldn't be Yaks washed just after the Pe-2s in the same first days of april ?
No I thing the washing have done in Mosalsk...

there is absolutely no way that the photo was taken in June as your timeline suggests[/color].  You should move that photo in April or early May and it has to be under Mosalsk airfield...  Smiley
I didn't want to place it in june at all , it's just because ther was there a place to put the pic...

In books that I have, 17 April action is described as a joint operation with 18 giap:  6 "Normandie" Yak-1s and 6 18 giap Yak-7s.
3 May action is described as a patrol: only Lefevre's and de la Poype's Yak-1s .  18 giap Yak-7s are not mentioned at all...
that's right (I have the normandie ORB book)

I put the pic with the shark mouth nearthe 3 may. the operation with the 18GIAP is indeed the 17th...

Regardless of dates, which are actually very close, and evidence from de la Poype's memoirs (white winter camouflage washed end of April and shark mouth painted just before May 3rd,), I still believe that lighter patches on de la Poype's Yak-1 are remnants of the winter camouflage.  Couple of weeks are acceptable accuracy for memoirs written 60 years later, winter camouflage may have been removed gradually etc.
I agree woth you. I think I will put some white remnants in the wings too...

Xan
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 04:45:11 PM by xan » Logged

KL
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« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2015, 12:36:20 AM »

Hi Xan,

it looks that Normandie squadron received 10 Yak-1s in January while training in Ivanovo.  7 of these planes are visible on this photo:



Most of these planes are all-white, but there is one in white blotches and one in "summer" camouflage.  Do you have more photos from Ivanovo showing those two planes?

Also, on March 16th, just before leaving Ivanovo, "Normandie" received 4 Yak-1s more.  Do you have any photos of those additional four Yak-1s???  were those four planes in over-all white camouflage or something else???

Regards,
KL

PS.  this could be a Yak-1 with partially washed winter camouflage:



Is this a "Normandie" squadron Yak-1?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 12:44:55 AM by KL » Logged
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