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Author Topic: about 1941/1943 paint scheme: de la Poype's yak-1 (normandie-niemen)  (Read 10083 times)
xan
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« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2015, 05:25:08 PM »

No it is not Konstantin . I would like if it was because it's quite an interesting painting for a modeler...

I found that:


according to the autor, it could be oil all along the fuselage!

I would like your opinion about the de la Poype plane's paint scheme because it's quite unusual.
Here are the pics a find.





and if the plane is the same :





the right part of the nose wich is the one we can see is very strange. If it has been repainted, I don't find any logic.

to complete the camouflage I used this one Konstantin put in an other topic.



this is the result I proposet, but I would appreciate your opinion, thanks


AS I said , the front right part seems veruy strange without any logic...
repainted yes, but why and how?
the karman seems all green...

about the pics , I don't think that it is the same plane. in the second plane (3 and 4 pics) the half of the wing is black (from the wheel to the fuselage) and this doesn't seem to be the case in the first two pics.
this is important because it could gave the number of the plane (30)
this plane was the 33-112 but three plane had the 33 started in 33 so this one had an other number

Xan
« Last Edit: October 19, 2015, 12:41:01 AM by xan » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2015, 09:20:48 PM »

Hi,
for the general pattern, I would use this image as an help.

I think that the old camouflage was somewhat ruined after the deletion of the winter paint, and so it was partially repainted, as for the black patch behind the exhaust pipes. The difference between new and old paint is much more evident than the old camo on a bw photo.
Regards
Massimo
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xan
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« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2015, 10:35:04 AM »

Thank you Massimo for your answer.
for the pattern I thought abouit this pic, but I don't see any logical with the port af the plane we know (right part of the nose).
In your opinion, the black behind the pipes was repaint, OK. Personaly, I find very strange the wing fillet who is green when wings and fuselage are black in this part...
Xan
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KL
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« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2015, 08:25:52 AM »

Hi Xan,
check this youtube link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KavFAXDQzSg

there is a Soviet news reel about "Eskadrilya Normandiya" starting at 3:26.

Hope it will help.

cheers,
KL
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xan
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« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2015, 09:58:19 AM »

Hello Konstantin,
thank you very much, it helps a lot!
thanks to this video, i'm sure the pics where part of the number can be see is the same plane!
in fact, this is the complete original moovie, and the 3:37 to 3:40 is new for me.
infortunely we steel can't read well the nuumber, but it doesn't matter, it's e new and important element.
thank you again!
Xan
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KL
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« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2015, 07:27:52 AM »







about the pics , I don't think that it is the same plane. in the second plane (3 and 4 pics) the half of the wing is black (from the wheel to the fuselage) and this doesn't seem to be the case in the first two pics.
this is important because it could gave the number of the plane (30)
this plane was the 33-112 but three plane had the 33 started in 33 so this one had an other number

Hi Xan,

From two images above,  de la Poype's Yak-1 had fuselage number "38"....  Although "58" also looks possible  Huh  I would definitively exclude 30 and 33.

Regarding the camouflage scheme, by far the most reliable information is in the book "The First Yak" ("Perviy Yak") by S. Kuznietsov.  There is the following drawing:





Baranov's Yak-1 was photographed in summer/early fall 1942 when regiment received new planes, so drawing represents standard factory scheme for mid-1942.  Photo posted by Massimo or following photos made in 1943 prove that the basic scheme did not change:





HTH,
KL



 
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2015, 12:30:08 PM »

Hi Xan and KL,
the photo above seems to show a 3 instead of a 5, having a white extension on its right side of the top.
The other one seems 8 or, less likely, 0,6 or 9.
Regards
Massimo
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xan
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« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2015, 08:53:14 AM »

Hello Massimo and konstantin.

mister K, for the painting scheme, I 'm very glad I decaded to apply the same scheme you propose me:



fot the other side, I had to respect the part we can see in the pics wich is very strange  Undecided


for the number.
it can't be the 38.
With the yak-1, normandie regiment applied VVS tradition and wore the first two numbers of the serial.
38 is well know because it was squadron leader Tulasne's plane (38-133).

this plane was the 33-116 plane; in a first time (when the yaks were painted in white)  it wore the red 33.
but at springtime there was three 33 (33-112, 33-116 and 33-110) The last one took the 33 number with Castelain as pilot.
I will keep 30 number until I have more information, knowing that it's just a suposition...

Xan

« Last Edit: October 28, 2015, 08:56:56 AM by xan » Logged

KL
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« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2015, 03:06:35 AM »

Hello Xan,

I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of the painting scheme....

I guess you were busy modelling, so you didn't pay attention to my previous posts - you asked question, you got answers and then you ignore the answers!

I thought we have agreed that de la Poype's Yak-1 was filmed in late April 1943 at the Mosalsk airfield.  You still have June 1943 for date and Khationky as the location!  Check again following photo:



It's a winter scene!  Yak-7 is on the patch of snow!!!  In other words, it is quite logical to interpret painting scheme of de la Poype's Yak as a winter camouflage


fot the other side, I had to respect the part we can see in the pics wich is very strange  Undecided



If you accept that this Yak was in winter camouflage, you will see photos in different way:

-  what you represent as green is actually worn out/semi-transparent white MK-7
-  black fields on your drawing are actually irregular areas that were left in original camouflage colours (green or black)

Airplanes made during winter (say between November and February) received winter camouflage in factories - a layer of white MK-7 was sprayed over the standard black green camouflage. Although technical requirements specified semi-transparent layer of white paint, on photos factory winter camouflage looks as even solid white completely covering plane's upper surfaces.

In operational units winter camouflage white paint was usually applied freehand with brushes.  In late fall or early spring when ground was covered in patches of snow, planes were camouflaged in "disruptive winter camouflage".  This camouflage usually consisted of irregular white fields alternating with fields left in original camouflage colours (black or green).  Example of this type of field applied camouflage is Galchenko's LaGG-3



IMHO, de la Poype's Yak-1 was also camouflaged in "disruptive winter camouflage".  It's clear from photos that the temporary white paint was hand brushed (note brush strokes!!!).

My interpretation of de la Poype's Yak-1 paint scheme:



Hope this will help!

Regards,
Konstantin 
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xan
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« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2015, 04:31:27 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
Excuse me if I took a long time to answer.

I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of the painting scheme....
no problem, it's interesting

you asked question, you got answers and then you ignore the answers!
this sentence has not its place here! you know enough me to know that I always take in consideration your informations , you are not fair...

I thought we have agreed that de la Poype's Yak-1 was filmed in late April 1943 at the Mosalsk airfield.  You still have June 1943 for date and Khationky as the location!
No you told that, it's diferent!
I looked to the ORB book abd those picture coul have been done in two moment.
in th 12th of april 7 yak-7  came to Mosalk airfield for a mision  comanded by Tulasne. the other officier was from the 18 GvIAP.
In the begining of June, arriving in Kationky, the GC.3 normandie share the airfield with its squadron brother, the 18 GvIAP.
But we know too reading the de la Poype memories that Marcelin, the de la Poype mecanic painted the shark mouth just before the 3rd of May mision...

It's a winter scene!  Yak-7 is on the patch of snow!!!
looking the moovie you gave me I'm not sure at all
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqqJhpzHsqw

I founded your interpratation with an winter camouflage interesting, but after quite a long time thinking about it, I 'm not convinced it was as you say.
Anyway thanks a lot to give your opinion, I need it, to go on!

Xan




 
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