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Author Topic: Question on colors from M-Hobby article  (Read 5239 times)
Imatos12
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« on: September 24, 2015, 02:06:27 AM »

I've been slowly translating my way through the Vakhlamov and Orlov M-Hobby articles on Soviet aviation colors.  In the work on pre-GPW colors they list an AII "Protective" and an AII "Light Green."  The AII "Protective" is listed as a nitro-enamel introduced in 1937.  They give it a FS number of 34095, a dark green.  Looking at the table of colors on this site, I'm assuming AII "Protective" matches AII (zashchitnyi) gloss camouflage green.  The AII "Light Green" listed in the M-Hobby article is said to be a nitro-enamel introduced in 1940.  I cannot find a match for this color on Massimo's table of colors.  So my question is, just what is this AII "Light Green"?  Looking forward to your answers.

Izaias           
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2015, 06:55:58 AM »

Hi Izaias,
the thing is interesting. I've often noted on photos that the colors on I-153s in 1940 appear lighter than those on I-15bis of 1938, but I had not a written confirmation of an AII lighter green till now. I suppose it's similar to A-19F, just a bit darker because they were distinguishable in German photos of 1941 on prewar-painted green planes of mixed constructions as MiG-3s and Il-2s.
Could you upload a scan of the page where this AII light green is mentioned, please?
Regards
Massimo
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Imatos12
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« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2015, 01:49:57 PM »

Hopefully it's large enough to read.   



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Imatos12
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« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2015, 02:00:53 PM »

The image of the page I posted is definitely too small to read.  Here's the link I got it from.  It's in the first group of pages, last page, table at the end.
http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_954.html

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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2015, 03:20:15 PM »

This one?
http://s1.postimg.org/39byynl1qn/image.jpg
The text is vague, it speaks of an AII light green. The encouraging thing is that it's defined light green exactly as A-19f, even if it is not written anything on its use. Is it written anything about its use in the text of the article?
One can suppose that the AII protective (dark green) of 1937 had the AE-7 as its oil counterpart for metal planes, while the AII light green of 1940 had the alkyd A-19f as counterpart for metal planes and, eventually, metallic parts of mixed construction planes.
Regards
Massimo
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Imatos12
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« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2015, 11:47:44 PM »

That's the page Massimo.  References to the actual use of AII light green is rather vague in the text of the article.  It's noted that on 25 May 1940, at Plant 36, it was decided to adopt light green and light blue AII nitro-enamels for fabric and wood surfaces.  Nothing else is said in this regard.  Additionally, the authors reference a November 1940 specification for paints which enumerated all varnishes, paints, primers, fillers, and dilutents.  This specification listed what the authors call old colors, namely AE-9 and AE-10, as well as newer colors A-19f, A-18f, and a number of AII paints: light blue, tobacco brown, cream, orange, and light green.     
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2015, 01:36:34 PM »

Interesting. Zavod 36 produced paints, so if they converted to lighter shades, all planes factories have to do this.
https://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/mharrison/archive/persa/022fulltext.pdf
I'm asking Averin about this subject.
Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: September 25, 2015, 02:09:21 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2015, 10:07:24 PM »

Hi,
Averin is skeptical, says that the article is very vague.  Anyway the phrase about light green looks clear, although it has very few relief on the article. It would be good to ask Orlov himself. Have you any way to contact him?
Regards
Massimo
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Imatos12
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« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2015, 12:21:58 AM »

Does Averin question the existence of AII light green, or is he skeptical of Plant 36 adopting the color? 
Unfortunately I don't have any way of contacting Orlov.

Izaias
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2015, 07:37:40 AM »

He is skeptical about the adoption of AII light green for planes. He's sent a pair of pages of a manual, but I wasn't able to understand well. I'll show them when possible.
Regards
Massimo
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2015, 07:06:53 PM »

Hi,
there is a color comparison on pieces of MiG-3 in Veesivehma depot at http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_954_start_320.html
The photos seem to show a light green, but the FS catalogue on the photo itself gives a match for the green to 34095 and 24097, that seem light on the photo, burt are dark when seen on a real FS catalogue. So the dark shade of AII green is confirmed, at least about the MiG-3.
Regards
Massimo
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Imatos12
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« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2015, 02:02:47 AM »

Good info Massimo.  The FS34095 matches the info Vakhlamov and Orlov give for the AII "Protective" green.   
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2015, 07:42:29 AM »

Yes. Pity that they didn't check the metallic parts, that are visibly different, but the contrast isn't so strong as it seems between the AII green and the A-19F from akan (at least, the digital chip).
Besides I'm not sure that the color of I-153 can be so dark.
Regards
Massimo
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righidan
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« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2015, 04:42:43 PM »

Dear Friends,
   as long as I know, there has been no mention in the forum of this material on experimental camouflage for Army (not Air Force) colors in 1939, published in ?Деформирующий камуфляж РККА (1939 год)? at the address http://tigerscorner.ru/gallery/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=75:-1939-&catid=34:2010-12-02-12-49-34&Itemid=53 . I think that it is interesting as it shows the amount of research on camouflage in the URSS before the war years, it also shows a light green, and it ends suggesting the use of large spots of the following three colors: a dark brown/black, a dark green (4bo) and a sand, which looks very similar to the three tone camouflage of the Air Force!
    Moreover together with 4bo and black, it lists eleven experimental colors using the Ostwald notation, (6 pn, 23 pi, 24 ng 3 ie, 4 ei, 22 lg, 2 le, 3 ng, 23 pn, 2 ni, 4 ig) and maybe it could be useful for the topic on this forum on ?Polichromatic camouflages and unknown AMT?.
   Hope it helps.
   As I have translated for my personal use the ?Aviakolletsia? done by Vakhlamov and Orlov, I can describe to Izaias the method I have used: if starting from a JPG or PDF, I use a professional OCR (Abbyy Finereader12) than I correct the misspelling with a Cyrillic keyboard, and feed the results to Goggle translator.   Then the LONG part is perfecting the translation and deciphering some words.
   I still remember that it took me almost half a day to understand the word ?Наркомовская? but it was great fun.
   I hope Izaias has even more fun, but has found a quicker way!
Daniele
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Daniele
Imatos12
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« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2015, 06:08:15 PM »

Very interesting site Daniele.  I wasn't aware of the camouflage work the Soviet army was involved in.  I especially like the camouflaged staff car.  Some of the paints listed are also given by Massimo as being used by the VVS during the 1940 camouflage experiments.  The schemes used by the army do look very much like the air force experimental schemes used in 1940.   

As for translating, I'm a little more old school in my approach.  I've got a Russian-English, English-Russian dictionary that I use, plus a handful of translation websites that come in handy when the book fails.  Definitely not quick, but I enjoy the process.
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