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Author Topic: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2  (Read 8050 times)
Petranera
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« on: October 30, 2015, 02:29:06 AM »

Hi there ! I'm totally new here so I'll (shortly) start presenting myself :

Graduated in History, I'm an active modeler for decades and I started a couple of years ago to make some try of reconstitution with a new support : 3d modelling on computer, and especially texturing, that I hope is not off topic here. I'm not very familiar with Soviet planes, my domain is more japanese and of course french planes, but I'm trying some experimentation on the side of the red star.

Today I want to speak about a project I'm doing concerning the white banded 33 Il-2 that I discovered on your bible website :

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/il2-late1941/banded/banded33.html

Few month ago the game moddelers from Gaijin created a nice serie of il-2 models on there game War Thunder. I decided to use this platform to try to recreate this white banded 33 Il-2, before doing a plastic model, so this subject will first concern only historic questions. The game graphic engine give the possibility to create new textures and new rivetting and pannel, I started with japanese planes and one of my texture was bought few month ago to be in the game.

The structure of the texture file is composed of different layers who give a "false" 3d effect on the model, build like this :



Here the first step without paint, entierly in duralumin :



White banded 33

Here a global aspect of the new texture I created refering to Massimo's graphics :



I also try to had to it an "hyppothetical" winter camouflage on it, reffering to other Il-2 studied by Massimo :




Then, some technical questions :

1 - Do you have more information concerning this unit with the white banded star and the number 33 ? More photographies and more information about the theater of operation of this unit ? Does this unit was still active in winter 41/42 when the first winter camouflage was added ?
2 - Does the global colors (blue, green, black) looks historically accurates ?
3 - Does the winter camouflage, even Hyppothetical, seams historically possible ?
4- On these metallic rear fuselage Il-2, did we have some fabric recovered parts ?

This is all the question I remember for the moment, thank you for having read that, and thank you for your time !

Pierre
« Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 07:16:19 AM by Petranera » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2015, 06:50:18 AM »

Hi Pierre,
thank you for your highly interesting images. But there is a problem: they are so wide that deform the visualization of the pages. Could you replace them with other ones, not wider than 1024 px, please?
On the graphic side, the images are highly realistic and appear much better looking than profiles. They are a definite progress over the screenshots obtained with the old Il-2 simulator.
For the colors: the AMT-4 and 6 are likely on a plane built and painted in summer 1941, but if you have utilized AMT-7 for the undersurfaces I would use AII light blue instead, looks more likely for that period.
The winter painting looks possible, even if not likely, because it incorporates elements seen on photos of different planes. Besides this would require that the plane survived the summer and fall 1941, that looks difficult again; I've seen only one photo of Il-2 with metal fuselage and winter painting. 
Besides I think that the photo of planes with white bands were of 1941 and of German source, that means that the plane was no longer in Soviet service in winter 1941/42. Anyway we can always suppose that it was another plane numbered 33, and the livery is within the limits of the possible.
For what I know, only the rudder and elevators were fabric covered.
About the unit: if I haven't written it on the site, I fear to have not this information, sorry.
Could you post some links to your works, please? They seem extremely interesting.
Regards
Massimo

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Petranera
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« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2015, 08:23:10 AM »

Hi Massimo, the pictures are now half-sized, I hope that less than 1024Px I can't check from where I am now.

Thanks very much for the answers :

Quote
For what I know, only the rudder and elevators were fabric covered.

That confirms what I was thinking, considering how the rudders and elevators are damaged on pictures. Something that happens on japanese planes (but the paint was far worst than russian ones) is that in fabric covered parts the same paints looks darker, as for the wooden parts on soviet planes if I understood well. I tried to lightly differ the luminosity of the paint on those parts, with less sun weathering for exemple.

Quote
but if you have utilized AMT-7 for the undersurfaces I would use AII light blue instead, looks more likely for that period.

Indeed I used AMT-7 for the undersurfaces, I'll try a modification.



Quote
Besides I think that the photo of planes with white bands were of 1941 and of German source, that means that the plane was no longer in Soviet service in winter 1941/42. Anyway we can always suppose that it was another plane numbered 33, and the livery is within the limits of the possible.

We can see on these pictures 2 different plane I guess, the number 1834612 on his wheels (russian picture ?) and the crashed 1852213. What could be the meaning of the number 33 ? As I'm not familiar with russian aviation I'm a bit confused, is that the number of a squadron ? If this number was only on few planes, like a dozen for exemple, that is actually hardly possible to see them few month later with a winter camouflage.

Do you have this photo of an il-2 with metal fuselage and winter painting ?

The hard work on this kind of texturing is the "false" 3d, the rivets and panels, but once is done you can use it again and again changing just the camouflage. I can also pretty easily change the metal fuselage to a wooden one without much work.

Thank you again for your answers.

Considering that my other works on texture are not related to soviet planes, I'll just post a link here to my community personal page on war thunder :

http://live.warthunder.com/user/Petranera/
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2015, 09:46:11 AM »

Hi Pierre,
this is the only image of a winter painted Il-2 with metallic fuselage I know.




I suppose that n.33 was a number given by the regiment, because only Lavochkins had factory painted numbers starting from late 1942 or 1943, for what I know.

I had a look to your illustrations and they are particularly nice. Ki-84 is one of my favourite planes. Were really some of them painted in uniform black green without markings?

Regards
Massimo

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Petranera
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« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2015, 11:02:54 PM »

Massimo, thanks for those informations concerning this "white banded 33" and this interesting photo.

Do you know some specific Il-2 (of any type) with two pictures, one with winter camouflage and another without ? Or even two pictures of the same plane who show a painting evolution ?

Concerning the Dark Green Ki-84 without hinomaru, I just have a profile by Richard Ward for the Osprey book in 1971 :



The description says : "Ki-84b, 520th Temporary Interception Regiment, Home Island Defence, Nakatsu Airfield, May 1945, Black Green camouflage for night fighter operation."

The 520th sentai is a famous regiment with some well knowns photographies of other planes from this sentai, but I never find the original photo used by Richard Ward for this specific one. There are some various testimony from allied pilots talking about provisory paints (sometimes daily) who can possibly recover fuselage Hinomarus for more discretion in night operation against B29, but that just could be due only to the bad visibility of the allied crew members during night.

And actually I constated many mistake on the Richard Ward profiles, included a profile of a chinese communist ki-84 from what we know now to be a false photo, so this totally dark green ki-84 is for me just hypothetical.
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KL
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« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2015, 06:25:29 AM »


Do you know some specific Il-2 (of any type) with two pictures, one with winter camouflage and another without ? Or even two pictures of the same plane who show a painting evolution ?


Not an Il-2, but there are photos of an Yak-1s in factory applied winter camouflage and photos of the same Yak after temporary white paint had been removed.  It was a "significant plane" the first one bought with the funds raised by the workers of the Saratov region and presented to mayor V.I. Shishkin in November 1942:

in factory applied winter camouflage:





in summer camouflage, after temporary white had been washed off:





Yak-1 tail displayed in Saratov Regional Museum suposedly belongs to the same plane.  If true, white paint was applied for the second time in winter 1943/44.



Hope this helps,
Konstantin

 
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2015, 10:29:39 AM »

Hi,
Quote
Not an Il-2, but there are photos of an Yak-1s in factory applied winter camouflage and photos of the same Yak after temporary white paint had been removed.  It was a "significant plane" the first one bought with the funds raised by the workers of the Saratov region and presented to mayor V.I. Shishkin in November 1942:
Interesting example indeed. Could also be that the plane was completely repainted in the spring. The camouflage paint appears nearly glossy, and the markings on the fuselage have been fully repainted.
The photo of the relic of the tail is interesting too. My impression , from the few that can be seen through scratches, is that the underlying camo of the tail was AMT-11-12.


Quote
Do you know some specific Il-2 (of any type) with two pictures, one with winter camouflage and another without ? Or even two pictures of the same plane who show a painting evolution ?

I can't remember examples of I-2 now, but there is a photo of a famous MiG-3 'for the communist party' with red arrow and white livery, that was later photographed camouflaged, still with the original marks.
Besides photos of LaGG-3s of Galchenko and Mironov show evidences of evolution.
In general, an evolution of painting on Il-2s can be seen in every field applied winter finish, or in black-green planes with wide white-red borders on the stars, applied after August 1943 (not to be confused with thin white outlines of stars typical of planes of Zavod 18 before that date).
Regards
Massimo

Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 10:37:43 AM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
Petranera
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« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2015, 09:49:20 PM »

Konstantin, thank you for this very interesting exemple, definitly a good subject for a reproduction. As for Japan, the ammount of Soviet planes (and pilots) lost is terrible. Having several sources of the same plane of those nations in differents liveries is a real luck. I'm always greedy of this kind of documents.

Massimo, I guess that concerning Il-2s, the best way to catch this evolution is as you said : from a winter temporary scheme we can quite easily reproduce the factory paint and even some other intermediary modifications. Do you have an idea of the possible durability of early planes trough the war ? Does the old survivors planes stopped to fly when the new versions were produced ? For exemple, we can see some Po-2 during all the war, but also before and after, that was a kind of a flying "jigouli".
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66misos
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« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2015, 10:31:28 PM »

...Do you have an idea of the possible durability of early planes trough the war ? Does the old survivors planes stopped to fly when the new versions were produced ? For exemple, we can see some Po-2 during all the war, but also before and after, that was a kind of a flying "jigouli".
Hi Petranera,
a time ago I made a table about some early L-L Cobras in 1943 - when they were delivered to SU and when they were destroyed or written off. May be it is not exactly about your question, but at least it can give you rough idea, how long they survived - it was usually weeks, rarely months.
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1367.msg10342#msg10342
IMHO you could expect something similar with other Soviet planes in 1941.
Regards,
   66misos

« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 10:31:12 PM by 66misos » Logged

Petranera
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« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2015, 10:34:07 PM »

Thank you Misos, that's exactly the kind of information I was looking for !
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2015, 06:59:46 AM »

Hi Pierre,
Quote
Do you have an idea of the possible durability of early planes trough the war ? Does the old survivors planes stopped to fly when the new versions were produced ? For exemple, we can see some Po-2 during all the war, but also before and after, that was a kind of a flying "jigouli".
very brief, as Misos wrote. Then probably increased when the Soviets conquered the superiority over Germans.
There are few examples of plane lasted a pair of years (singleseater Il-2s in 1944) or more (the second prototype of Pe-8 was operational but survived the war). Besides all the (few) I-153 and I-16 utilized as shturmoviks in 1942 had to have survived at least six months of war.
I suppose that the old versions of the planes were used side by side with new ones, unless a different speed prevented to fly together. Eventually they could have moved to another unit still using that type.
Regards
Massimo
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Petranera
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« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2015, 10:25:10 PM »

Thank you for those very interesting informations Massimo.
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2015, 06:52:52 AM »

You're welcome.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2015, 07:36:03 AM »

Hi Pierre,
It's practically impossible to generalize those things.  It was a conflict that lasted 4 years and it was spread over thousands of kilometres of front.  Germans were close to the victory in 1941-42, but Soviets finally won in 1944-45...

Table Misos made needs some explanation:

From April to June 1943 Pokrishkin's 16 giap took part in heavy aerial combats over the Kuban (Krasnodar region on Black Sea coast).  Those combats are known in Soviet history as "Kuban Meat Grinder" - even the name of the battle suggests heavy losses.  Still, Soviets claim that this was a clear victory for VVS and a fatal blow to the Luftwaffe.  Soviets see this battle as a turning point in the air war over the East Front. You may try to read more here:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B4%D1%83%D1%88%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D1%81%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%9A%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8_(1943)

From June to September, 16 giap was withdrawn further from the combat - it didn't participate in the Kursk Battle.

In September it was back in combat on Black Sea coast.  Now VVS had initiative over much smaller Luftwaffe forces (Germans also had to withdraw planes from East front to Meditarenian and Reich defence).

From January to April 1944 16 giap was withdrawn again to reorganize and receive new planes.  Pokrishkin went to Moscow to meet Yakovlev and Lavochkin and decide between La-7 and Yak-3.

April-June 1944 again in combat over N-E Romania... and so on, and so on...

So when Misos says that planes lasted "usually weeks, rarely months"  that is true for April-June 1943, not for the rest of the war.  and this is only 16 giap; other regiments had different histories...

Hth,
KL
« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 07:42:04 AM by KL » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2015, 10:54:30 AM »

Hi,
...It's practically impossible to generalize those things... So when Misos says that planes lasted "usually weeks, rarely months"  that is true for April-June 1943, not for the rest of the war...
I do not generalize, I do not say it is rule for whole WWII. That is why I wrote at the end of my post:
...you could expect something similar with other Soviet planes in 1941...

...Do you have an idea of the possible durability of early planes trough the war ? ...
I can give you an example not about early planes, but late Lavochkins. Czechoslovakia used Lavochkins (La-5FN, La-7, La-5UTI) after the war. Those planes were used already during WWII. Designed life time or warranty time of those planes was 2 years since they left factory. So machines produced in 1944-45 became quite "used" in 1946-7, having structural damages. All that (but not only that) caused number of accidents so commission of Cs. and Soviet experts recommended to write-off those planes, as not suitable even for training.
Regards,
   66misos
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