Sovietwarplanes
September 16, 2019, 04:59:23 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This forum replaces the old sovietwarplanes.com whose domain has expired in January 2017. It has been updated with the posts of the year 2016.
The new location of the site 'Sovietwarplanes pages' is at http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2] 3
  Print  
Author Topic: "White banded" 33 late 1941 Il-2  (Read 8734 times)
Graham Boak
Full Member
***
Posts: 117


« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2015, 12:17:36 PM »

This must be as true for the VVS as for other nations: because a unit was in combat for a long time does not mean individual aircraft stayed with it for that length of time.  Possibly some did, but not a majority.  Losses would be steadily replaced and well-used aircraft would be sent back to the rear for major overhauls.  The rate at which this happened would depend upon the flying rate, combat tempo and capability of the opposition.  It is certainly not unreasonable to expect a unit of some 12-20 aircraft to have had a complete turn over in the course of a month of front-line operations.  Less at some times, more at other times.  There are clear examples of individual aircraft with much longer lifespans - but these stand out because of that.
Logged
Petranera
Newbie
*
Posts: 20


« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2015, 12:22:50 AM »

Thanks for all those very interesting clarifications.

Concerning a soviet unit that I well know, the Normandie-Niemen, the average life of a plane was between 6 and 12 months :

First Yak 1 between 19 january and 8 of 1943, but mainly for preparatory flight until april 43. From april to 8 of august, the planes fight a lot. The "rempants" work 14 hours a day on the planes. In the begining of august those planes are in very bad shape. Average durability : 6 months with 3 month of real fight.

First 5 yak 9 arrived in july, the rest in august 43. That seems at this moment that still few yak 1 take part to the missions. In july 44 the unit have 51 yaks 9. At this period the Yak 9 are described as totally used and in very bad condition. The 12 of august the 44 remaining yak 9 are replaced by brand new yak 3. 17 more new Yak 3 arrived in November. Average durability of Yak 9 : 10 month, but with only 5 month of fight.

35 new yak 3 arrived in december 44. The 14 of february 45 remain only 27 Yak 3, and 7 of them can't fly, when they receive 5 new planes, and some few more until the end of the war. In june 45, 38 of those yak-3 are offered to the pilots. At their arrival in Paris at the end of the war the planes still look in good shape, but most of them are almost new :

http://www.ina.fr/video/AFE86003145

But one year later in 1946, only 26 over 38 remain. Used as school planes but without parts, the mecanics need to canibalise some plane to repair the other.

That's interesting to see that even in very good condition of flight the durability of those planes is very limited.

Normandie-Niemen : 273 victories, 5240 war missions, 43 loss, 4 prisonners and 7 wounded over a total of 95 pilots (57% of loss).

Only one of those planes still exist today at the Bourget museum, but this one was took from another russian unit to complete the Stalin gift to the Normandie-Niemen pilots, so it never fight with the Normandie Niemen. It was repainted many times, but was restaured this spring 2015 :



Here some pictures of this plane since is arrival in France (very interesting pictures just before the restauration in the second link, we can see the factory number 25, 21 from russian unit, and 18 when he arrived in paris in 1945) :

http://www.pyperpote.tonsite.biz/listinmae/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=201:yak-3&catid=35:les-reserves-du-musee-de-lair&Itemid=118
http://www.pyperpote.tonsite.biz/listinmae/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=201%3Ayak-3&catid=35%3Ales-reserves-du-musee-de-lair&Itemid=118&limitstart=1

Cordialement,

Pierre
« Last Edit: November 04, 2015, 12:31:37 AM by Petranera » Logged
Troy Smith
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 380


« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2015, 02:37:27 AM »

Thanks Pierre

photos or similar photos from you link have been posted here before regarding the original markings and paint colours.

The photo is of F-AZLY, which is pehaps a converted Yak-11
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?95276-Stacks-of-Yaks&p=1588084#post1588084
Quote
Just how many Yak-3 a/c has Jean Garric made? I remember seeing an article detailing two Yak-11s he rebuilt with an Allison up front (White 4 & 6 I think), but from the list here it appears he's made a lot more. Or are there some typo's lurking around?

170406 N33UA Tulsa Warbirds Garric Yak-3 R Tulsa,OK
171729 Allison Yves Jean-Marie Garric Garric Yak-3 R Weslaco,TX
172612 Allison F-AZOS Jean-Marie Delimboeuf Garric Yak-9R
172809 Allison N3UA Yves Jean-Marie Garric Garric Yak-3 R Harlingen,TX
172890 Allison F-AZLY Amicale des Avions de Collection et de Sport Rouen Garric Yak-3 R
Y337 Allison F-AZXZ George Chauveau Garric Yak-3 R Coulommiers ex337?

Regarding the post war use.
Quote
But one year later in 1946, only 26 over 38 remain. Used as school planes but without parts, the mecanics need to canibalise some plane to repair the other.

That's interesting to see that even in very good condition of flight the durability of those planes is very limited.

Parts wear out, and if you don't have new spares, then in time this will happen.

But, wartime aircraft were lost at such a rate that they were not planned to have long service lives, also the sheer speed of aircraft development in WW2 meant that aircraft that were the best were completely out classed in two years.

Older types that survived ended up in other roles, even if just relegated to training units.
Plenty of RAF Hurricane and Spitfires from the Battle of Britain were still in training units in 1943/44 for example.

I don't know much about VVS fighter training, I presume that photos are rare, photos of RAF training units are rare as they were just not very glamorous, and I know that photos of PVO (air superiority units ) are rare as they were behind the front lines and harder to get permission to photograph.

This detail came up in regard to rarity of Spitfire photos, as these were mostly used by the PVO units.
Logged
Petranera
Newbie
*
Posts: 20


« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2015, 02:50:33 AM »

Troy :

Yes you're right, I made a mistake with the picture of the yak, this in not the one I was talking about :



F-AZLY is a reproduction made in 2000 in America for a french collector. It is now with the prototype colors I think.

Concerning non-russians planes, I've seen a lot of ww2 or post war american prop planes who served many years after the war in Africa, french colonies and even France. Some corsairs and helldivers were used for a very long period, but the conditions were totally different. Concerning russian planes as you said, they were definitly not destined to a long life...
« Last Edit: November 04, 2015, 03:10:38 AM by Petranera » Logged
barneybolac
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 320


« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2015, 01:57:47 PM »


Concerning the Dark Green Ki-84 without hinomaru, I just have a profile by Richard Ward for the Osprey book in 1971 :



The description says : "Ki-84b, 520th Temporary Interception Regiment, Home Island Defence, Nakatsu Airfield, May 1945, Black Green camouflage for night fighter operation."

The 520th sentai is a famous regiment with some well knowns photographies of other planes from this sentai, but I never find the original photo used by Richard Ward for this specific one. There are some various testimony from allied pilots talking about provisory paints (sometimes daily) who can possibly recover fuselage Hinomarus for more discretion in night operation against B29, but that just could be due only to the bad visibility of the allied crew members during night.



Not the right forum on Japanese aircraft so my apologies. Have never found a photo of that KI-84 either I have put together a combination of profiles & matching photos in a forum for a flight SIM I play. Thought it might be useful for you if you are looking to skin KI-84's.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,296356.30.html
Logged
Petranera
Newbie
*
Posts: 20


« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2015, 03:06:36 AM »

Hello Barneybolac

Quote
Not the right forum on Japanese aircraft so my apologies.

Yes I was just answering a question from Massimo concerning this particular scheme, sorry to post here a not related plane, that was not my attempt.

Thank you very much for this link concerning ki-84s, I discovered some photos I've never seen of well known profiles. And once again we can notice that without a photo, a profile can't almost never be trusted. And even with photo, and especially for japanese plane, you can see several interpretations of the colors sometimes totally opposed.

Don't we have some recent program who can help with that ? You put the photo on it, refer some sure colors (as the hinomaru, sky, grass, trees, uniforms) and that give you the probable other colors ?
Logged
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5773


« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2015, 05:58:18 AM »

Hi,
Quote
Don't we have some recent program who can help with that ? You put the photo on it, refer some sure colors (as the hinomaru, sky, grass, trees, uniforms) and that give you the probable other colors ?
The eye and the mind, I suppose.
Unfortunately a bw photo has lost the separed indications on hue, darkness (that can be related through the sensibility peaks of the film) and particularly of saturation (that becomes always zero).
Besides there is the 'color depth' fact, that causes also that two apparently similar paints, but with different pigments, can appear different on a bw photo.
Eventually, a program could try to make the reverse path simulating the look of a bw photo from a color one, giving the supposed sensibility profile of the film.
Regards
Massimo
Logged
KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2015, 03:38:26 AM »

Hi Pierre,
your Il-2 pictures from the beginning of the thread are really impressive.  Can you do something similar with 1943 Normandie squadron Yak-1b discussed at this thread
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=2100.0
Huh

It's the plane flown by a French pilot, and you will help a French modeller who happens to be a history teacher!!! (you can't say no...)

The challenge is to show temporary/washable white paint which is semi-transparent and in this case applied by brush (note brush strokes!).  It is really about the paint texture (and you re expert in that field!)





and my unsuccessful attempt:



I am sure you can do it better.

Regards,
KL
Logged
Petranera
Newbie
*
Posts: 20


« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2015, 04:21:05 AM »

KL :

Thanks for the compliment KL !

As a french also graduated in history, and fan of Normandie-Niemen guys, I'll try to do that ! For the Il-2 I actually redid all the normal mapping structure (3d rivets, panels, etc) and that take a lot of time. But for a profile I can use the original files, not so detailled but quite enough if you don't zoom to much.

If you studied well the subject could you make a skecth situating clearly the scheme of all the sides of the plane (I mean your guessing) ? If you could also include the shark mouth, eyes and other marks that's very good. No need of a nice skecth, just a precise one, with accurate colours if possible (un plan, simple croquis des c?t?s dessus dessous suffira, tu peux le faire au crayon et le scanner ensuite si tu veux).

I'm a bit busy now but I can try to do this in the next weeks.

Massimo :

Let's hope in the future and the invention of this miracle program !

Concerning Il-2 late 1941, sorry to plebicite again you science but I have another question : do you know any custom marks on those planes, as sentence or drawing, or that was to early in the war ? And for other model of singleseater Il-2s ?

Quote
There are few examples of plane lasted a pair of years (singleseater Il-2s in 1944)

Do you worked on it ? I didn't find in the site, I'm very interested by those planes.

Thank you very much !

Pierre
Logged
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5773


« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2015, 01:12:05 PM »

Hi Pierre,
here is one, well known. The date is uncertain, but I guess it was in late 1943/early 1944 because of the marks. If so, that plane survived to one year or more of operations.



On this page, there is a small photo of plane 29 in 1944 aside twoseaters. I suppose that it was partially repainted with light brown, but the image is too scarcely detailed. Anyway it could the base for a speculative profile or skin.

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il2-camo/8gvshap-24al/8gvshap-24al.html

Regards
Massimo
Logged
Petranera
Newbie
*
Posts: 20


« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2015, 09:43:22 AM »

Thank you very much Massimo, very nice pictures, and very nice subjects for reproductions to !
Logged
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5773


« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2015, 11:35:36 AM »

Hi Pierre,
will you make a skin of these ones?
Regards
Massimo
Logged
Petranera
Newbie
*
Posts: 20


« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2015, 04:06:25 AM »

That's a possibility, if I find some time. They have a new graphic engine now in War Thunder, quality is far far better, especially on reflections. I'll first try to fininish this white banded 33.
Logged
Petranera
Newbie
*
Posts: 20


« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2015, 01:32:58 AM »

Here more "screenshots" of the work in progress on the white banded 33 and his fictionnal winter version (I worked a lot on the bumped duraluminium effect, reffering on some singleseater photographies as the Budapest wreck one) :

http://cdn-live.warthunder.com/uploads/6b/507fd10f1d2809567591f5d6457d0030bd05bc/finalprocess.jpg

I'll try to do a five views illustration when finnished, as a profile reference. Please tell me if you see some inaccurates color tunes or other things.

Pierre
Logged
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5773


« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2015, 05:36:56 AM »

Hi Pierre,  it looks a very interesting work.
What about the red stenciling on the nose, the interruted aiming lines for bombing? Are them documented?
Regards
Massimo
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!