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Author Topic: Red stars of different red colors  (Read 2368 times)
66misos
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« on: January 15, 2016, 08:36:47 PM »

Hi,
I would like to ask (older members) for a help.
I remember a color picture posted somewhere at this forum some time (years) ago showing red star (on Il-2 underwing?) repainted with the another red star. Interesting was the significant difference between two red colors. Could red paints used in the different time give so different results? This probably could also explain the difference in the grey tones within victory starlets on the different Cobras, Yaks etc., eg. exclude yellow color.
I look for that picture but I am not able to find it. Do you have it, please, saved somewhere?
Thank you in advance.
Regards,
      66misos
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KL
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« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2016, 09:35:15 AM »

Hi Misos,
This would be one exaple:



Il-2 wreck was recovered from Sahalin island.

Regards,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2016, 06:29:17 PM »

Interesting image. The original blue looks light, perhaps A-28m was really made in stocks with non uniform shade, and the light one is acceptable as well as the darker one, similar to AMT-7.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2016, 06:40:54 PM »

KL,
Thank you, I meant exactly this picture. Original red is darker, more red. The new one is more orange.
It reminds me previous era when czechoslovak and soviet flags were side by side. Red on cs. flag was red, like red star on those known LaGG-3 pieces. And soviet flag was red slightly going to orange.
Difference similar to this two reds:
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1226.msg8461#msg8461
Regards,
   66misos
« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 06:47:09 PM by 66misos » Logged

KL
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« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2016, 08:53:39 PM »

Hi Misos,
check this link http://www.kommynist.ru/%D0%A4%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B3_%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A0

Quote
Описание флага СССР было установлено в статье 71 Конституции СССР, принятой на второй сессии Центрального исполнительного комитета СССР (ЦИК СССР) 6 июля 1923 года:

Государственный флаг Союза Советских Социалистических Республик состоит из красного или алого полотнища, с государственным гербом.

Третья сессия ЦИК СССР 12 ноября 1923 года постановила:

Во изменение ст. 71 Конституции Союза ССР 3-я сессия Центрального Исполнительного Комитета постановляет: Государственный флаг Союза ССР состоит из красного или алого полотнища, с изображением на его верхнем углу у древка золотых серпа и молота и над ними красной пятиконечной звезды, обрамленной золотой каймой.


Вторая версия
8 апреля 1924 года Президиум ЦИК СССР постановлением �О подробном описании государственного флага Союза ССР� установил:

Объявить следующее подробное описание государственного флага Союза Советских Социалистических Республик.

Флаг красный (или алый) прямоугольный, с отношением длины к ширине, как 2:1

Soviet flag was defined in 1923 as "krasniy" or "aliy" meaning red or scarlet

For practical purposes the two colours are very similar:

Quote
SCARLET:  Алый цвет � он же червонный цвет, является ярким оттенком красного цвета. В сравнении с настоящим красным имеет уклон в оранжевый цвет. В следствии чего, красный в сравнении с алым выглядит холоднее.  Традиционно ассоциируется с цветом горящего пламени или с цветом человеческой артериальной крови.

HEX: #FF2400
RGB: 255, 36, 0
CMYK: 0, 88, 98, 0
HSV: 8�, 100%, 100%

Quote
RED:  Красный цвет на старо-славянском языке звучит как: красьнъ � красивый, прекрасный или червлёный, рдяный. К этому цвету относится группа цветов в длинноволновой части видимого спектра. Красный цвет один из семи цветов видимых при образовании радуги.

HEX: #FF0000
RGB: 255, 0, 0
CMYK 0, 100, 100, 0
HSV: 0�, 100%, 100%

IMHO, in ideal world, VVS red stars were supposed to be somewhere between the red and the scarlet...   Smiley

check here to:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D1%86%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D0%BB%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D1%86%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82

regards,
KL
« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 08:56:23 PM by KL » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2016, 09:45:21 PM »

Hi KL,
I think it is clear now. According to the color definition in your post above (in Russian) scarlet in comparison with red looks a bit more orange.
It is also evident from RGB - "red" is 255 red, while "scarlet" is 255 red plus 36 green resulting in color going a bit to orange.
I am happy with this proof - i did "shift to orange" intuitively in all my P-39 and Tu-2 profiles. Simple red looked too dark/cold to my eyes.
Regards,
    66misos
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2016, 08:13:06 AM »

Hi,
the strange thing is that two red paints for marks are known and standardizedfor planes, A-13 and AII red. They have more or less the same shade, apart for wearing or variability of stocks. So, an eventual scarlet or orange look should be due to use of paints from other sources.
Or, as an alternative, could be due to the use or a white or dark background. Red paint is scarcely covering, and this could make the difference.
Some time ago Ruchkovsky wrote to me that the red stars of modern soviet planes turned to an orangish shade with weathering. Eventually, I could ask again.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2016, 05:01:53 AM »



IMHO, in the case of the Il-2KR wreck above, different colours of two red stars are due to different paint types and different pigments used in two paints.  The original, 1943 star was almost certainly painted with A-13 oil paint. Pigments in this paint were more durable and paint did not significantly change (it may actually turn darker as most oil paints do when they age).

Overpainted 1944/45 red star was probably painted with nitro-cellulose AII red, in the similar way as the rest of the wing was repainted with AMT-7.  Pigments in this overpainted star were unstable and red colour of the paint significantly deteriorated towards orange.   


Case below is almost a mystery - factory painted red stars on le Bourget Yak-3 are orange.  Not usual "carrot red" typical for weathered Soviet era red stars; it's pure, 100% orange!!!



Regards,
KL
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66misos
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« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2016, 10:56:13 PM »

Hi KL,
Here is picture of the early Il-3 with the metal wing, e.g. ref star should has been painted with the oil paints - and it is almost orange:





Compare tone of "orange red" with the All-2kr red nitro paint on LaGG-3 wooden surface:


or red A-13 oil paint on SB metal surface:


or with US red paint on the P-63 metal wing painted in uSA:


Regards,
   66misos
« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 04:29:40 PM by 66misos » Logged

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