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Author Topic: Kozhevnikov's P-39  (Read 16401 times)
KL
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« on: January 13, 2016, 02:41:22 AM »

IMHO, those must be the planes repainted in Soviet paints.  Paint is definitively glossy, so it can't be any AMT paint.

More examples from 438 iap (later 212 giap):



P-39 flown by regiment commander A.V. Oborin in 1944.  Note map case reflections on the wing and on the fuselage







P-39 flown by A.L. Kozhevnikov in 1945 could have been repainted.

regards,
KL
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 11:30:45 AM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2016, 05:29:59 PM »

Hi KL,
thank for nice photos. Yes, those planes are dark and glossy, really looks repainted. Question is what color they used, and if VVS paints, what color they used on the underwings instead of NG. Unfortunately rear fuselage & tail of Kozhevnikov's Cobra is not visioble.

Two profiles of the Kozhevnikov's Cobra(s):




I do not know how reliable they are.
Regards,
    66misos
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66misos
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« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2016, 09:34:16 AM »

Hi KL,
thanks for info. I would be interesting to know whether Cobras overhauled in PARMs in 1945 were repainted let's say light blue AMT-7 underside and AMT-12 on upper surfaces, or by their oil equivalents.
Regards,
   66misos
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66misos
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« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2016, 04:56:45 PM »

Hi,
here is profile of the late 4-blade-propeller P-39Q flown by Kozhevnikov:

EDIT Jan 24: updated profile is in my post bellow.



According to the Russian sources it is from 212 giap, spring 1945 and interestingly it has white nose. According to the other Russian sources Cobras from from 212 giap had blue noses, while white noses were on Cobras from 213 giap.
Neither serial number on the tail nor board number (on the left side of the front fuselage?) is not known to me.
Regards,
   66misos
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 07:55:47 PM by 66misos » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2016, 06:04:42 PM »

Hi Misos,
beautiful artwork again.
The prop blades seem stramgely light on the photo, seem silver. The spinner, instead, looks of the same color of the front of the cowling on the photo, while it looks different on the drawing.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2016, 06:57:18 PM »

Hi Massimo,
thank for comment. However, that picture is more-less work in progress.
I have already got info from VIF that there should be number "43" on the left side and latter there was a little number "43" also on the right side somewhere under the stars. Plus, Cobras from 212 giap had blue, or according to the some sources yellow noses. So we clarify it at VIF. Plus this Cobra should be polished and may be even darker.
So definitely the picture will be updated.
regards,
   66misos
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KL
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« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2016, 09:45:07 PM »

First VIF comment by Alex:

Quote
Машина Кожевникова тоже перекрашенная, свой облик в конце войны меняла не раз, и на части фото блестит как ...  Lips Sealed (в копилке)

so, it was definitively repainted, it was definitively glossy and photos were definitively taken after the war (summer 1945, maybe later ??)

- Since we have seen that after the war, VVS planes were painted in single gray (AMT-11 or sometimes AMT-12) on upper surfaces, I would suggest darker gray-blue.
- If it was so glossy on photos, make it glossy - the plane may have been painted with unknown glossy paint or varnished...
- IMHO, the plane was painted in one colour overall - this was also seen on some post-war VVS planes



IMHO, nose could be light blue - on the photo above, walls are white, plane's nose is darker...

Could you please post photos from "kopilka" - I can't sign on to AIF (some software problems...)

Regards,
KL    
« Last Edit: January 23, 2016, 09:55:35 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2016, 08:23:27 AM »

Hi Misos
Quote
I have already got info from VIF that there should be number "43" on the left side and latter there was a little number "43" also on the right side somewhere under the stars.
I see sort of scratch lines between the stars and the spinner. Could it be that a number was deleted on the photo for any reason?
Quote
IMHO, the plane was painted in one colour overall - this was also seen on some post-war VVS planes
All dark grey... strange but possible. There are photos of La-7 and P-39 in solid color, although lighter, presumably contemporary of this.
Regards
Massimo

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66misos
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« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2016, 05:20:17 PM »

...Could you please post photos from "kopilka" - I can't sign on to AIF (some software problems...)
Hi KL,
here they are. Both pictures were posted at AIF (VIF) Alex:





Regards,
    66misos
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66misos
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« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2016, 07:35:37 PM »

Hi,
here is updated profile of Kozhevnikov's Cobra - blue nose ans bright (NMF?) propeller blades. Let's say it is partially cloudy weather so glossy surface is not so evident ;-)

EDIT Jan 25: propeller had 3 blades, not four (see photo above), so I deleted profile and I am going to draw corrected new one.

Regards,
    66misos
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 11:05:11 AM by 66misos » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2016, 09:47:34 PM »

Hi Misos,
if the blades are in a color different from the factory one, I think that stenciling shouldn't appear.
Regards
Massimo
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66misos
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« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2016, 10:20:24 AM »

Hi Massimo,
I do not know whether prop. blades are grey and highly polished, or they are NMF with protective clear varnish. But check the photo - stencil is visible on the usual place on the bottom blade.


No the tire on the main langing gear, it looks like from a car, not like standard one:


HOWEVER, this photo:

shows that propeller had 3 blades, not 4, so another correction is ahead Embarrassed

EDIT: Outcome from the discussion on modelforum.cz
- there is missing black walkway outlined by red "no step" line.
- the dark long blotch on the wing root seems to be reflection of the fuselage and open doors on the polished glossy surface. Note regular black waves caused by bended metal surface.
- according to the memoirs of Senior engineer of 212 giap (woman) and simultanously wife of Kozhevnikovv his last Cobra had board number "38", not "43".
- his last confirmed aerial victory is dated on April 18, 1945. He was awarded HSU on Juny 1945.
- victory stars painted in regular geometrical shape mean that total number of stars were known at moment of painting.
- Kozhevnikov was commander of 212 giap that time.
All that supports opinion that this Cobra was repainted, decorated and polished before photo session or military parade or other celebration after the end of WWll.
Technicaly said, according to the calendar the Spring is from March 24 till June 21, so dating on the photo - spring 1945 - is correct.

Regards,
   66misos
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 07:59:50 PM by 66misos » Logged

KL
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« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2016, 01:15:35 AM »


HOWEVER, this photo:

shows that propeller had 3 blades, not 4, so another correction is ahead Embarrassed


It looks that two planes, one with 3-blade and one with 4-blade propellers had been repainted in dark glossy colour!!!

Quote
All that supports opinion that this Cobra was repainted, decorated and polished before photo session or military parade or other celebration after the end of WWll.
Technicaly said, according to the calendar the Spring is from March 24 till June 21, so dating on the photo - spring 1945 - is correct.

Photo session is not likely:  why repainting entire plane and than take photos with b/w film which can't register colour??? it doesn't make sense.  There isn't a single photo which would show entire plane in its "glory".  In short, those photos were taken to show people, not the plane...

I agree that the plane (or planes) were repainted after VE-day, but IMHO, summer 1945 was equally possible.  "Parad Pobedi" was on June 24, 1945 (technically summer!!!)



"Aviation Day" was in August, WWII ended in September 1945 - so there were many occasions for a military parade or an air show etc.

You would be safe if you say "Germany, after VE-Day"

Regards,
KL
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 07:21:04 AM by KL » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2016, 10:18:38 AM »

Hi KL,
when looking at theese 2 photos, both Cobras have 3-blades propeller, but there are differences:

Oborin
- commander of the 438 iap untill Aug 7, 1944 when he died (taran into Heinkel),
- HSU on April 10, 1945.

- propeller is relatively dark and not polished, e.g. standard steelgrey factory paint,
- Cobra is cleaned, but not highly polished,
- Cobra has standard black walkway near the wing root.

Kozhevnikov
- commander of 438 iap during only a brief period from Aug 7, 1944 (Oborin's death) till Aug, 23 1944,
- 438 iap was renamed to 212 giap three months latter, on Oct 27, 1944,
- his last confirmed aerial victory is dated on April 18, 1945,

- propeller is bright and polished,
- whole Cobra is highly polished, note even sharp dark reflection of the ground and prop blade on the fuselage,
- black walkaway near the wing root is missing.

Looking at the dates it is almost one year time difference between these two photos.

Three photos from the book "Песнь высоты" (Song of height) by T.B.Kozhevniokova, the wife of Koshevnikov http://www.migavia.com/books/kozhevnikova-tb.html:

"Victory Day" - not the dark nose and spinner, really could be blue


"Technical staff" - note the bright nose and board number probably 43/48/49(?) on the panel on the ground.


While nose is highly polished the wing root around the wing trailing edge is quite matt/semigloss and the paint is scratched and abraded. The technician is sitting on the blanked covering wing root.

Regards,
   66misos
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 11:28:16 AM by 66misos » Logged

KL
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« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2016, 01:12:07 AM »

some dates that may help to date photos of Kozhevnikov's Airacobra:

27. November 1944: 438 iap renamed into 212 giap, 205 iad renamed into 22 giad, 7 iak renamed into 6 giak RSGVK
5. April 1945:  212 giap awarded Alexander Nevskii Order
11. May 1945: removed from "deistvuyushchei armii" (removed from combats)
26. June 1945: 22 giad/7 giak moved to Austria and attached to 2 VA of the "Central Army Group"

(From M. Bikov's encyclopedia "All Stalin's Fighter Regiments")

From Kozhevnikova's book:

- Самолеты перелетели в Германию и сели на площадку близ Альт-Розенберга... Самолеты рассредоточены в чистом поле, примыкающем к лесу. Никаких аэродромных сооружений нет. Все вокруг голр, пусто. Выпал небольшой снег ? холодно и сыро.
- 13 февраля перелетели на новое место. Это огромный базовый аэродром фашистской авиации. Все аэродромные здания и соседний городок Бриг целы... На дальних стоянках около тридцати исправных, но с пустыми баками ?юнкерсов?, в ангарах ?мессершмитты?, на складах ? запасы нового инструмента... Аэродром Бриг для инженерно-технического обеспечения, пожалуй, самый удобный из всех, на которых приходилось базироваться.
- В начале апреля полк перелетел на аэродром Лихтенвальдау. Собственно, на этом поле аэродрома никогда не было. Ровная площадка, окаймленная с двух сторон сосновым лесом, а рядом ? деревня... Вот уже четвертый аэродром, где мы не строим капониры ? земляные обваловки для укрытия самолетов, а ограничиваемся лишь маскировкой и рассредоточением [75] самолетов по сторонам взлетного поля.
- 15 апреля перелетаем на аэродром Фрайвальдау, а на следующий день началась последняя крупная битва в этой войне ? Берлинская операция.
- Занят Котбус (22 April 1945)? крупный город на автомобильной магистрали, ведущей в Берлин... И вот перебазирование, наверное последнее, на аэродром Даберн. Формирую передовую команду, она должна с рассветом прибыть к месту назначения. Готовим самолеты, ремонтируем поврежденные, к утру все машины должны быть исправны.

HTH,
KL
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