Sovietwarplanes
November 12, 2019, 08:04:37 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This forum replaces the old sovietwarplanes.com whose domain has expired in January 2017. It has been updated with the posts of the year 2016.
The new location of the site 'Sovietwarplanes pages' is at http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 8
  Print  
Author Topic: Kozhevnikov's P-39  (Read 21670 times)
66misos
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1512

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


WWW
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2016, 10:06:53 AM »

Hi,
I would add some additional data from the  T.B.Kozhevniokova's book:

November 5, 1943
... Pyatikhatki airfield ... a pair of planes taxied in the parking lot. They are scouts/recon. From the cockpit of the first one squadron commander Kozhevnikov: "The plane was shaking as in a fever."
We started inspection - there was a hole through the stabilizer - direct hit ... spar is interrupted, the stabilizer is held only on the casing and the ribs, and the wheel on one hinge...

January 1944
438th Regiment flies to a new airfield in Veselovka... German bombing raid...we came out from the still hot crater... in fnont of us is mangled aircraft of squadron leader Kozhevnikov, the aircraft that just three months ago came from intelligence with torn a hole in the stabilizer... Squadron commander Kozhevnikov meticulously chose a new aircraft after his previous one was destroyed at the airport under the bombs of the enemy...Kozhevnikov opted the plane with number 38.

November 27, 1944
438 iap was renamed into 212 giap - guard iap

February 13, 1945
We flew to a new location - Brig. This is a huge german base airfield. On the distant parking lots around thirty serviceable "Junkers" but with empty tanks, "Messerschmitts" in hangars, inthe warehouses inventory of new tools... for engineering and technical support, the airfield Brig perhaps the most convenient of all, we had based.

early April 1945
the regiment flew to the airfield Lichtenwalde. Actually, this was never airfield. Flat area, bordered on two sides by pine wood.

April 5, 1945
212 giap awarded Alexander Nevskii Order

April 15, 1945
we leapt to the airport Fraiwaldau, and the next day the last major battle of the war started - the Berlin operation.

April 18, 1945
Kozhevnikov's last confirmed aerial victory


April 22, 1945
Cottbus, a major city on the highway leading to Berlin is occupied... and probably the last relocation - airfield Dabern.

Regards,
   66misos


Logged

66misos
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1512

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


WWW
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2016, 09:06:40 PM »

Hi,
profiles of Kozevnikhov's Cobra could be:

1. P-39Q still in original OD/NG camouflage, board number 38 according to book Song of height by T.B.Kozhevniokova, the wife of Koshevnikov and then senior technician of the regiment:

2. P-39Q most probably already after the WWII, repainted overall AMT-12 and polished. Board number 43 according to the VIF forum:

Regards,
    66misos
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 09:06:33 AM by 66misos » Logged

KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2016, 01:51:22 AM »


I would add some additional data from the  T.B.Kozhevniokova's book:
...

Hi Misos,
thanks for the translation!  Cheesy

Anatoliy Kozhevnikov wrote 3 books of memoirs.  First book "Zapiski istrebitelya" was published in 1959



Alt-Rozenberg Airfield (January 20, 1945 to February 13, 1945)
? Под нами Германия! ? кричу по радио.
? Ура! Ура! Ура!.. ? раздается в ответ с самолетов.
...Это произошло 20 января 1945 года. Кстати, самолетов противника в этот день мы почти не встретили... К вечеру перелетаем на аэродром Альт-Розенберг.

Brig Airfield (Feb 13 to early April 1945)
В плотном строю группы пробились сквозь полосу снегопада и благополучно приземлились на отличной взлетно-посадочной полосе.
...На стоянках находились совершенно исправные самолеты. Они не могли подняться из-за отсутствия горючего. В авиамастерских стояли отремонтированные истребители, а в самом большом ангаре висел на талях самолет "Дорнье", покрашенный черной краской, что говорило о его принадлежности к отряду ночных разведчиков.
...А вот и немецкий авиационный штаб. Огромные фотолаборатории для обработки аэрофотосъемки, штурманские классы, оборудованные тренажерами...
...На нашем комфортабельном бригском аэродроме собралось до шестнадцати авиационных полков.
Тут стояли бомбардировщики, штурмовики, истребители. С целью их рассредоточения часть была переброшена в другие места. Исправные самолеты нашего полка улетели в Польшу, на аэродром Рудники, а подлежащие ремонту остались в Бриге.
... Вскоре началась частная операция по ликвидации группировки противника западнее города Опельн, и наше соединение снова сосредоточилось на аэродроме Бриг.

Lihtenvaldau Airfield (early April to April 15, 1945)
Наше соединение перелетает на аэродром Лихтенвальдау. После благоустроенного Брига он кажется особенно неудобным, неприспособленным, тесным. Весь день готовим стоянки для самолетов, маскируем машины от наблюдения с воздуха.

Fraivaldau Airfield (April 15 to April 22, 1945)
15 апреля к вечеру на малой высоте скрытно от врага перелетаем на аэродром Фрайвальдау, ближе к линии фронта. А утром следующего дня с рассветом полк построился под знаменем. Зачитываются приказ и обращение Военного совета фронта к войскам о наступлении на Берлин, на осиное гнездо фашизма. Короткие, трогающие за сердце речи летчиков. Идем в последний решительный бой! После митинга на самолетах появляются надписи: "Только вперед!", "На Берлин!", "Даешь Берлин!", "Отомстим за погибших товарищей!"


Kozhevnikov's first book ends with VE-day, May 9, 1945 in.  Some details about the period after VE-day are davailable in his second book "Startuet muzhestvo" published in 1966:



Dabern airfield, May 09, 1945 to June 26, 1945
Нaш полк приводил в порядок боевые сaмолеты. Тщaтельно проверялaсь кaждaя мaшинa. Солдaты-художники любовно рисовaли нa бортaх истребителей полковые нaгрaды.
Вскоре мы получили прикaз перебaзировaться в Австрию нa aэродром Тульн.

Tuln airfield, Austria (June 26 to June 27, 1945???)
Впереди, прямо по курсу, - длиннaя серaя полосa бетонки - бывший фaшистский aэродром. Он оборудовaн по последнему слову техники, взлетaть с него можно было в любую погоду. Здесь у гитлеровцев рaзмещaлся учебный центр, в котором готовили aсов воздушного боя.
... Просторные aнгaры вместили все сaмолеты нaшего гвaрдейского Ярослaвского орденa Алексaндрa Невского истребительного aвиaционного полкa. Гвaрдейские Сaндомирский и Ченстоховский полки сели нa соседних aэродромaх. Вся нaшa дивизия сосредоточилaсь вблизи Вены.
... - Товaрищ комaндир, - обрaтился ко мне мехaник Вaсильев, - рaзрешите сфотогрaфировaть вaс около сaмолетa, нa пaмять. А то ведь скоро по домaм рaзъедемся.
Этa мысль понрaвилaсь всем, и летчики рaзошлись, чтобы сфотогрaфировaться со своими мехaникaми у боевых мaшин.
... Перед вечером пришел прикaз - перебaзировaться зa Дунaй. Жaль было остaвлять тaкой прекрaсный aэродром, но что поделaть. Нa следующий день мы перелетели в Штокерaу. Здесь меня ожидaло рaдостное известие: мне присвоили звaние Героя Советского Союзa.

it's not clear how long 212 giap stayed at Tuln airfield; according to http://www.litmir.co/br/?b=206470&p=37
Тем временем, 28 июня 1945 г. 213-й Гв. ИАП был переведен в Австрию, на аэродром Тульн (30 километров северо-западнее г. Вены), а 25 июля перебазировался на аэродром Штоккерау (25 км северо-восточнее Вены) ? Тульн отходил к американской оккупационной зоне.

IMHO, you have all the info surrounding mysterious "dark Airacobra No 43/48/49"
Regards,
KL  
« Last Edit: January 31, 2016, 02:15:35 AM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5801


« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2016, 09:22:54 AM »

Hi Misos,
seem good as usual. The dark grey one is particularly interesting. I hope to receive your files soon.
Regards
Massimo
Logged
KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2016, 10:58:04 PM »

Hi Misos,
Your drawings of Airacobras flown by A.L. Kozhevnikov are interesting but there are still some questionable details and at least one detail that needs correction


2. P-39Q most probably already after the WWII, repainted overall AMT-12 and polished. Board number 43 according to the VIF forum:



Number "3" should be round, it didn't have a horizontal line at the top.  It was a symmetrical, its top half was rounded the same way as its lower half. Check the photo:



Something like this number "43"



Also refer to



It's the only image of a 212 giap's post war Airacobra on which number can be clearly seen...

Regards,
KL
Logged
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5801


« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2016, 07:02:57 AM »

Hi,
Quote
Number "3" should be round, it didn't have a horizontal line at the top.  It was a symmetrical, its top half was rounded the same way as its lower half
It could be, I haven't seen it, but the style with horizontal top was predominant on photos that I've seen. I think it was preferred because it is different from cyrillic Z.
Regards
Massimo
Logged
KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2016, 07:28:11 AM »


Quote
Number "3" should be round, it didn't have a horizontal line at the top.  It was a symmetrical, its top half was rounded the same way as its lower half
It could be, I haven't seen it, but the style with horizontal top was predominant on photos that I've seen. I think it was preferred because it is different from cyrillic Z.


You can see the number only on this photo:



the second digit is clearly rounded... so rounded that it could be interpreted as 8 or 9.

BTW, could you please separate posts about Kozhevnikov's Airacobra into a separate thread?
Regards,
KL
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 07:32:50 AM by KL » Logged
66misos
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1512

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


WWW
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2016, 09:07:28 AM »

Hi,
thanks a lot for comments.
Seems some guys at VIF prefer more declarations than discussions and do not like several subsequent why/what/what, they stopped respond from some moment.  Cry

Seems that on the photo the digit behind 4 has "open" left side, so it could be either 3 or 6. Not 8 or 9.
I thought about style of digit "3" and I checked a lot of photos. And as Massimo wrote 3 with straight line on top was much more preffered. I would even said that I did not find wartime nicely rounded digit 3.

Here are examples from the 22 giad where 212 giap belonged from the end-of-war period:
P-39 Airacobra from 129 giap:


P-39 Airacobras from 213 giap:


However, I am even more confused with the font of 38.
Compare it with 5 on Oborin's Cobra:


Kozhevnikov opted the plane with number 38 on January 1944 after his previous one was destroyed by bomb. It was almost one and half year untill the end of war - very long time for one Cobra, they usually survived several weeks, or months at the best. It is quite possible that 38 and 43 were two different Cobras.

Translated info provided by KL:
Dabern airfield, May 09, 1945 to June 26, 1945
Our regiment put in order all warplanes. Every plane was checked. Soldiers-artists lovingly painted regimental orders/medals on the fuselages.

Tuln airfield, near Vienna, Austria (June 26 to June 27, 1945)
All aircrafts of our Guard Yaroslavl Alexander Nevsky Order fighter regiment were put into large hangars...pilots and technicians went together to make common photos at their fighter planes.

Regards,
   66misos
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 11:34:00 AM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5801


« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2016, 01:53:17 PM »

Quote
the second digit is clearly rounded... so rounded that it could be interpreted as 8 or 9.
I see, I wonder if there is some shadow or object that makes the number to look opened on its left upper side. Looks really a rounded 3.

Quote
BTW, could you please separate posts about Kozhevnikov's Airacobra into a separate thread?
I've done, but not sure that the work turned out well. It was difficult to decide where to start, and an enormous photo made things more difficult because it deformed the visualization.

Regards
Massimo
Logged
KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2016, 08:31:47 AM »

Seems that on the photo the digit behind 4 has "open" left side, so it could be either 3 or 6. Not 8 or 9.
I thought about style of digit "3" and I checked a lot of photos. And as Massimo wrote 3 with straight line on top was much more preffered. I would even said that I did not find wartime nicely rounded digit 3.

3 with straight line on top might have been more common on VVS planes, but rounded 3 did exist :






It looks that 3 with straight line on top was an option, not "preffered", during the Soviet Union. 1981 GOST has this for Arabic and Roman numerals:

 

Regards,
KL
Logged
66misos
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1512

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


WWW
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2016, 03:53:40 PM »

...3 with straight line on top might have been more common on VVS planes, but rounded 3 did exist...
Hi KL,
I fully agree.
I decided for the digit 3 with straight line on top on Kozhevnikov's Cobra only because the digits 3 on the other Cobras from the "sister" units from the same division, painted on the same position/style and from (roughly) the same time period have straight line on top. So it looks like painted by rule/template.
I know it is not proof, it is only my choice.
Regards,
   66misos
Logged

KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2016, 07:30:42 PM »


I decided for the digit 3 with straight line on top on Kozhevnikov's Cobra only because the digits 3 on the other Cobras from the "sister" units from the same division, painted on the same position/style and from (roughly) the same time period have straight line on top. So it looks like painted by rule/template.
I know it is not proof, it is only my choice.


Hi Misos,
as is, your drawing contradicts photographic evidence.



It looks that everybody agrees that the number on the photo above is 43 (I agree too...). It is also clear on the photo above, that the second digit is rounded. So, it has to be "rounded 3"...  Smiley

When there is no material evidence, or the evidence isn't clear, you should use the closest analogy.  Photo of a plane from the same regiment is more relevant than photos of planes from "sister regiments". As I said before, the most relevant photo and the closest analogy is the photo below:



IMHO, digit 3 on Kozhevnikov's Airacobra was sprayed with a stencil that had a thin vertical line across. Something like this:



If you check the first photo in this post, there is a dent at the top of digit 3.  This dent probably indicates thin vertical line across the digit 3...

Regards,
KL
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 07:55:22 PM by KL » Logged
66misos
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1512

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


WWW
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2016, 08:59:55 PM »

Hi KL,
You are probably right. Anyhow, there was no response on my question at VIF whether info about no. 43 is only from that photo or from the other document.
Seems I will rework both profiles. According to the book they painted regimental orders in June at the airport near Viena. So "38" in OD/NG camo should be without orders painted on the doors, with stencils style digits 38.
Dark grey Cobra should have also stencils digits 43 and regimental orders painted on the doors.
I will do it probably next week.
Regards,
   66misos
Logged

KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2016, 11:14:00 PM »


So "38" in OD/NG camo should be without orders painted on the doors, with stencils style digits 38.


How I understood your previous posts, Kozhevnikov got No "38" in January 1944 and it's questionable if that particular plane survived till the end of war.
IMHO, the closest analogy for Kozhevnikov's Airacobra No "38" is Airacobra flown by regiment commander Oborin, photographed in spring 1944:



So, your drawing should depict Kozhevnikov's No "38" as it appeared in spring 1944: no orders painted on doors, probably no blue nose and no divisional white diagonal line on its tail. Just plain OD/NG Airacobra with white number "38" on its nose.  Font should be the same as on Oborin's Airacobra, something like this:



Regards,
KL
Logged
66misos
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1512

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


WWW
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2016, 06:45:45 AM »

Hi KL,
Exactly. However, there is not known photo of Cobra "38". Plus no known info when/if he switched from "38" to "43". Only the book sais about "38" and photo shows "43".
According to Alex from VIF there even was little "43"somewhere bellow victory stars. But no response for my question where is that info from. Neither serial number of "38" is known.
So I can only guess an early appearance of "38" exactly how how you described it above, or latter appearance - only the regimental/divisional elements of the fast recognition, e.g. white diagonal stripe on the tail and blue nose added. With overpainted serial number.
Regards,
   66misos


EDIT:
I tried to find appropriate font for digits 38 similar to "5" from Oborin's Cobra. Here is what I found on different P-39 and La-5:

Seems digit 3 should have straight line on the top.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 09:16:50 PM by 66misos » Logged

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 8
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!