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Kozhevnikov's P-39
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Author Topic: Kozhevnikov's P-39  (Read 47662 times)
KL
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« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2016, 11:55:11 PM »

Hi Misos,
following is a qoute from A.L Kozhevnikov's book "Zapiski istrebitela" (one of my previous posts!)

Quote
Fraivaldau Airfield (April 15 to April 22, 1945)
15 апреля к вечеру на малой высоте скрытно от врага перелетаем на аэродром Фрайвальдау, ближе к линии фронта. А утром следующего дня с рассветом полк построился под знаменем. Зачитываются приказ и обращение Военного совета фронта к войскам о наступлении на Берлин, на осиное гнездо фашизма. Короткие, трогающие за сердце речи летчиков. Идем в последний решительный бой! После митинга на самолетах появляются надписи: "Только вперед!", "На Берлин!", "Даешь Берлин!", "Отомстим за погибших товарищей!"

Slogans appeared on April 16, 1945...
HTH,
KL
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66misos
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« Reply #46 on: February 18, 2016, 11:56:07 PM »

Hi KL,

info from VIF today - there was the same slogan on all Cobras - "Отомстим за Николая Живова", e.g. "Otomstim za Nikolaya Zhivova"

Regards,
   66misos
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 08:40:57 AM by 66misos » Logged

KL
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« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2016, 02:55:42 AM »

Hi Misos,

Regarding P-39Q No "19":
- Red stars should have narrower white outline (red stars probably modified in field to comply with Sept 1943 regulations)
- Number 19 looks too heavy, number 1 is definitively too thick, whole number could be too big?
- One-line comment should be corected: P-39Q-10, 438 iap, January 1944, Kirovograd offensive, Ukraine.

Regarding P-39Q No "5":
- Red stars should have narrower white outline
- One-line comment should be corected:  P-39Q, A.V. Oborin, 438 iap, spring or summer 1944 (Oborin was killed in a taran attack on August 07, 1944)

Regarding P-39Q No "34":
- spinner and nose number should be the same colour (yellow?)
- One-line comment should be corected: P-39Q, N.G. Kuzmin, 212 giap, March 1945, Germany (on March 16, 1945, Kuzmin shot down 3 Me-109s; his last 3 victories...)


photo avove shows spinner and number painted in same colour


Squadron commander Yegorov (and unknown pilot) congratulate Kuzmin his victories

HTH,
KL
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 02:58:18 AM by KL » Logged
KL
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« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2016, 08:06:11 PM »

Hi Misos,
It looks that AIF experts Owl-99 and Alex (Mihail Bykov and Aleksey Pekarsh) didn' like yellow nose... Can you start a new thread at AIF and ask about the 205 iad markings - are there any evidences in documents, memoirs or interviews? Or "historians" and profile artists only guess colours from b/w photos??

I agree with Bykov that there should be some logic, (although he said "even in misinterpretations, fantasies and speculations" and I don't think we are dealing with fantasies...)

-  combination "red-blue-white" makes more sense than "red-yellow-white".  Yellow and white spinners were too similar and not likely to be used as recognition markings within the same unit (205 iad)
-  Tail diagonal and spinner colour were established at the division level, maybe even at the higher level (Corpus or Air Army?).  It's unlikely that a regiment would change them during the war.  It might have been different after the war...

I would suggest following:
1. both spinner and number "34" are light blue, slightly darker than gray propeller blades
2. number "34" was originally white and repainted in blue by hand.  Check photo bellow, blue brush strokes and small areas of white close to the edges are clearly visible



HTH,
KL
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66misos
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« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2016, 06:55:28 PM »

Hi,

EDIT: updated profiles of P-39 Cobras from 212 giap in the posts bellow.

Regards,
   66misos
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 08:39:42 AM by 66misos » Logged

KL
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« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2016, 08:38:43 PM »

Hi Misos,
those profiles look really good!

Some comments regarding No "47":

fourth digit in the serial number has to be 9.  P-39Q-25 with serial numbers starting with 470 were from a 200 plane batch 44/70905/71104 (i.e. from 470905 to 471104). 
Your profile represents one of 95 planes with serials from 470905 to 470999.  Remaining 105 planes had serial starting with 471... (from http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/p39_15.html )

-  Make the best guess for the fifth digit.  To my eye it's 5 and the complete serial is 470953

-  P-39Q-25 must have had markings with white discs.  Those planes were made at the end of P-39 production in spring 1944 and that is exactly the time when white discs were painted in Bell factory.  Your profile represents a plane with white discs repainted by the Soviets.  They also added wide white and thin red outlines around the red stars.

Add slogan written in white in 2 lines.  Maybe "Otomstim za" in first line and "Nikolaya Zhivova" in second line (although on the photo the second line looks much shorter that the first!)?  IMHO, it would be unusual to write personal name in two lines, so maybe there were 2 slogans:  "Otomstim za Nikolaya Zhivova" and "Na Berlin" below it?

-  Because of the slogan and because the medals are absent from the door, this profile represent plane as it looked at the beginning of the Battle of Berlin (16 April ? 8 May 1945).  Comment under your profile should be:

P-39Q-25 212 giap, beginning of the Battle of Berlin[/b] (16 April ? 8 May 1945), Freiwaldau airfield (Silesia, 109 km NE of Dresden), Germany

-  I would suggest to change tail diagonal colour to yellow!!!  Photo shows that the diagonal's colour is the same as the colour of the serial number (yellow...)



Yellow tail diagonal  would be consistent with the diagonal on post-war P-29 No "44"



We are pretty sure that diagonal on "44" was yellow because there are two photos of it one taken with yellow filter and one with no filter...  Smiley

HTH,
KL
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66misos
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« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2016, 10:16:53 PM »

Hi KL,
thanks a lot for feedback and you analyse. Cheesy
Proposed serial number looks OK, I will change it, same as yellow diagonal stripe on the tail.
What about digits 47? Yellow or blue? Although yellow color was mentioned at VIF as real option they strongly prefer blue color now.
Green disc under the red star is already there, white and red outline on the star tips is reaching out from the green disc.
I will try to fit slogan to area like on the photo, we will see how it goes. Anyhow, in this case I would not exclude name in two lines.
Seems guys at VIF do not like our approach/work, they give only rare responds lately. Huh
Regards,
   66misos
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KL
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« Reply #52 on: February 23, 2016, 12:30:03 AM »

Hi Misos,

I would keep number "47" blue...  because there is a photo of Kuzmin's number "34" from March 1945 which shows that number and spinner were the same colour  (i.e. blue).

Regarding the red stars:  there should be a clear distinction between the Airacobras made in 1943 and Airacobras made between January and July 1944:  
-  1943 Airacobras had 1943 USAF markings over-painted by Americans with OD/NG paints
-  1944 Airacobras had white discs over-painted by Soviets with local green/light blue paints.

I can't see that difference on your profiles...  Shocked

Also, the width of the white outline around the red star could be wider than on your profiles.  Those were field applied markings, not perfect factory sprayed markings.  Some instructions show radius of the red star as one half of the radius of the complete marking.  something like this:


  
IMHO, "47" should definitively have wider white outline than what you have.  

- Font in which number 47 is written should be similar to the number 34 on Kuzmin's Airacobra:  digit 4 has shorter vertical line, top horizontal line on digit 7 should be the same as the curved horizontal line on digit 3.  Check again number "34":



HTH,
KL

P.S.  thanks for that "our work"   Smiley
IMHO, your profiles look better and are better researched than any P-39 Airacobra profiles published in Russia...
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 08:12:36 AM by KL » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #53 on: February 23, 2016, 08:36:34 AM »

Hi,

EDIT: Updated profiles are in the following posts.

Regards,
   66misos
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 09:03:46 AM by 66misos » Logged

KL
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« Reply #54 on: February 23, 2016, 07:49:26 PM »

Hi Misos,
"47" turns into an interesting case and an attractive profile/modelling subject.

Slogan and yellow diagonal look convincing...   Cheesy
How about making white line around the red star wider?  Also, the nose number font should be consistent with No "34", especially digit 7 and its top line.

You started with Kozhevnikov's plane and you will end with the complete coverage of all known 438 iap/212 giap Airacobras!!!  Good job!

Regards,
KL
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66misos
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« Reply #55 on: February 23, 2016, 10:27:55 PM »

Hi KL,
thank you for appretiation Smiley
Photo of P-39 b/n 47 was mapped on the P-39 drawing to get proportions and 47 as you can see is the result. It is similliar to 34 but not the same, not so "fat". But yes, font could be more simmilliar.
I will rework red star, white outline will be a bit thicker.
However, it has to wait for a while. i have to edit a short doc movie now.
Regards,
    66misos


PS: I am still not decided whether to make also Kozevnikov's "fictional" 38 or not. There is so many Cobras I would like to make.
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KL
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« Reply #56 on: February 23, 2016, 11:10:39 PM »

... I am still not decided whether to make also Kozevnikov's "fictional" 38 or not. There is so many Cobras I would like to make.

Better not... make profiles of those Airacobras for which there is photographic evidence.

You need to fine tune profiles that you already have:

1.  Post-war Airacobra No "56" probably had yellow tail diagonal.



this because all Airacobras on April 1945 photo had yellow diagonals!!!




2.  Post-war Airacobra No "44" should have blue spinner/nose!!! Or, maybe this plane had been repainted in blue AMT-7 overall?



This because all other 212 giap Airacobras had blue noses...  Grin

Regards,
KL
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 11:33:06 PM by KL » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #57 on: February 24, 2016, 09:48:15 AM »

Hi KL,
this photos at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=2139.msg18097#msg18097 are from March 1945, and diagonal stripe on the tail is very bright (still white?):


However, it seems to be forming interesting pattern:
- all wartime Cobras 212 giap, and probably 213 giap have repainted only propeller spinners, while end-war/after-war Cobras has repainted also part of the front fuselage, not onlyspinners,
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=2139.15
http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=2139.msg18102#msg18102
- war-time b/n fonts look more "old fashioned", while after-war fonts look more "strict or technical"
- yes, all late-war Cobras from 212 giap originally white diagonal stripe repainted with darker color, probably yellow.

1. Then what about this, heavily retouched photo of the after-war Cobra "43" from 212 giap?

Experts at VIF agreed that nose&spinner are light blue, b/n 47 has "technical" stencil font.
But what is the color of the diagonal stripe on the tail? It should/could be yellow to fit the pattern. Huh

2. And what about the nose of the after-war Cobra "44" also from 212 giap?

Prop. spinner and nose have the same or very similiar color as the fuselage. But there is a thin line sepparating usually repanted nose part from the fuselage. And area around nose guns as well as 30mm gun cover on the spinner are darker.
It almost looks like spinner and nose part are painted yellow outlined with the thin red line and red area around nose guns as well as 30mm gun cover on the spinner. Light blue over bluegrey does not make sense.

Regards,
   66misos
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KL
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« Reply #58 on: February 24, 2016, 10:37:15 PM »


this photos at http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=2139.msg18097#msg18097 are from March 1945, and diagonal stripe on the tail is very bright (still white?):




Photo above is unrelated to Kuzmin's "34"...  Check again original RGAKFD link http://rgakfd.altsoft.spb.ru/showObject.do?object=1806228408
photo was taken in 1943, by different photo-correspondent and it isn't 1st Ukrainian Front.  This photo can not be used as a proof that in 1945 212 giap Airacobras had white tail diagonal...

I am more concerned with No "47" photo you posted at AIF:



Личный состав 213 ГвИАП возле P-39Q-15 (желтый 47), принадлежавший звену управления полка. Дмитрий Калинин сидит между лопастей. Германия, аэродром Гаро, июнь 1945г.

(Photo and comment were published in Мир Авиации 2002-02 magazine.  Article is about Дмитрий Андреевич Калинин, author is В.Мартианов)

It seems to  be the same P-39Q-25 No "47" as seen on the following photo:



Check also text about 213 giap pilot Vasiliy Mihalev published in Istoriya Aviatsiyi 2004-1:  http://coollib.com/b/231727/read
Author of this text is Aleksey Pekarsh (a.k.a. VIF forum Alex).  Following is what Pekarsh writes about 213 giap markings:
 
Quote
Осенью 508-й ИАП получил в Иваново ?Аэрокобры? модификаций P-39N-1, N-5 и Q-5. Крупные тактические номера белого цвета намазывались кистью под трафарет в носовой части фюзеляжа, на крышках отсека вооружения. Стиль нанесения номеров, как и вид трафарета, не менялся до конца войны за исключением редких случаев. Номера 1-й эскадрильи начинались с единицы, 2-й и 3-й ? соответственно, с двойки и тройки. Василий Михалев, как комэск-3, получил самолет с номером ?30?. Серийный номер самолета, к сожалению, установить пока не удалось. Как отмечено выше, 17.12.43 г. при посадке сгорел самолет P-39Q-5 сер. № 4219893, но неизвестно, была ли это штатная машина комэска. Следует отметить, что американские серийные номера желтого цвета на хвостовом оперении закрашивались в полку редко, в основном ? после ремонта с перекраской.
Весной 1944 г. 508-й ИАП перевооружили на P-39Q-15, сменив одновременно нумерацию ? теперь бортовые номера самолетов в эскадрильях начинались соответственно с 7,8 и 9, а в звене управления имели номера 100,101 и 102 (комполка, штурман и начальник ВСС). Василий Михалев получил машину с сер. № 44-2845 и белым борт. № 90. Красные победные звездочки с белой окантовкой наносились на правом борту над выхлопными патрубками. Однако, 1 июня 1944 г. капитан Михалев был сбит не на этой машине, а на принадлежавшей комэску-1 М.ЕКочергину P-39Q-15 сер. № 44- 2838 ?белая 70?. Машина Михалева ?белая 90? была потеряна 18.01.45 г., когда на ней не вернулся с боевого задания младший лейтенант Ю.Л. Бугров. К этому времени самолеты (смесь P-39Q-15, Q-20 и Q-25) теперь уже 213-го Гвардейского ИАП приобрели новые отличительные признаки. После получения Гвардейского звания ?Кобры? полка стали нести знак ?Гвардия? на правой, использующейся для посадки, двери пилотской кабины. Кроме того, белый кок был дополнен окраской в белый цвет и носовой части фюзеляжа (до среза удлинительных труб пулеметов). Весной 45-го на левых дверях самолетов появился орден Александра Невского. Следует отметить, что в конце войны вновь поступающим в полк самолетам перестали присваивать тактические номера списанных машин, а продолжили сквозную нумерацию, в итоге значительная часть ?Кобр? имела достаточно редкие для советских ВВС трехзначные номера.
После того, как полк был награждён получил ещё один орден ? Богдана Хмельницкого ? рисунки на дверях машин опять пришлось поменять. Теперь гвардейский знак меньшего размера был изображен на обеих дверях, а ордена разместились по соседству с двух сторон.

HTH,
KL
« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 02:00:14 AM by KL » Logged
66misos
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« Reply #59 on: February 25, 2016, 09:48:45 AM »

Hi KL,
The text from Istoriya Aviatsiyi 2004-1 by Aleksey Pekarsh (a.k.a. VIF forum Alex) about 213 giap markings:
"...508 iap...P-39N-1, N-5 и Q-5... big white board numbers (paint by brush over stencil) on the front fuselage... their style and and way of application kept until the end of war... B/n of the 1st squadron started with 1, b/n of the 2nd and 3rd squadron started with 2 and 3... Michalev as a leader of the 3rd sq. had b/n 30... US Serial on the tail were repainted rarely, usually after overahul... In the autumn 1944 508 iap war rearmed with new P-39Q-15, now b/n of the individual squadrons started with 7,8 and 9, command flight had 100, 101 and 102... Michalev received P-39 s/n 44-2845 and white b/n 90 (written off on Jan 18, 1945)... M. Ekochergin P-39Q-15 s/n 44-2838 b/n white 70... That time Cobras (mix of Q-15, 20 and 25) from already 213 giap...Guard badge on the right door. Plus white color from the sprop. spinner war extended to the nose fuselage...From spring 1945 A. Nevsky badge on the left doors... At the end of war they stopped to repeate b/n from lost planes onto new replacements, but they continued with the actual numbers, resulting to many unsusual 3-digits board numbers... After 2013 giap was ordered by Bogdan Khmelnickij order, they again repainted badged on the doors - small Guard badges were on both left and right doors and both orders (Nevskij and Khmelnickij) were placed adjacent on the sides."

nicely fit following photos:




There is no mention about b/n 47. Moreover, when I posted photo of the "47" at VIF, Alex replied: "Маленькая поправка: "47" - это тоже 212 Гв.ИАП" - A small correction: "47" - is also 212 Gv.IAP.
Note description under the "47" photo: Личный состав 213 ГвИАП возле P-39Q-15 (желтый 47), принадлежавший звену управления полка. Дмитрий Калинин сидит между лопастей. Германия, аэродром Гаро, июнь 1945г. - ...P-39Q-15 (yellow 47)... AFAIK Q-15 had 3-blades propellers, not 4-blades.

...it seems to be forming interesting pattern:
- all wartime Cobras 212 giap, and probably 213 giap have repainted only propeller spinners, while end-war/after-war Cobras has repainted also part of the front fuselage, not onlyspinners,
- war-time b/n fonts look more "old fashioned", while after-war fonts look more "strict or technical"
- yes, all late-war Cobras from 212 giap originally white diagonal stripe repainted with darker color, probably yellow.

1. Then what about this, heavily retouched photo of the after-war Cobra "43" from 212 giap?

Experts at VIF agreed that nose&spinner are light blue, b/n 47 has "technical" stencil font.
But what is the color of the diagonal stripe on the tail? It should/could be yellow to fit the pattern. Huh

2. And what about the nose of the after-war Cobra "44" also from 212 giap?

Prop. spinner and nose have the same or very similiar color as the fuselage. But there is a thin line sepparating usually repanted nose part from the fuselage. And area around nose guns as well as 30mm gun cover on the spinner are darker.
It almost looks like spinner and nose part are painted yellow outlined with the thin red line and red area around nose guns as well as 30mm gun cover on the spinner. Light blue over bluegrey does not make sense.

Regards,
   66misos
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