Kozhevnikov's P-39

[66misos]

Hi,
so come back to Kozhevnikov's "43":

It is heavily retouched so spinner&nose and diagonal stripe are not very reliable.
But look at wing leading edge - from the bottom to the top there is dark underwing area in the shadow, then along the whole leading edge is very thin bright (underwing?), next is dark area (upperwing) and then again bright area which is shining on the polished dark upperwing.
It does not look like the wing is dark from the bottom. So, what is that bright underwing area? Light blue?

Here is the summary of all discussed Cobras from 212 giap:
- War-time ?19? (January 1944) - blue spinner, white no. 19, white diagonal stripe on the tail,
- War-time ?5? (summer 1944) - blue spinner, white no. 5, white diagonal stripe on the tail,
- War-time ?34? (March 16, 1945) - blue spinner, blue/yellow(?) no. 34, white/yellow(?) diagonal stripe on the tail,
- War-time ?47? (April 15, 1945) - blue spinner, yellow no. 47, yellow diagonal stripe on the tail,
- Post-war ?43? (June 1945) - blue spinner&nose, white no. 43, white/yellow(?) diagonal stripe on the tail,
- Post-war ?56? (1945-46) - blue spinner&nose, white no. 56, white/yellow(?) diagonal stripe on the tail,
- Post-war ?44? (1945-46) - blue spinner&nose, yellow no. 44, yellow diagonal stripe on the tail, red outline.

Regards,
   66misos

 

[KL]

Hi Misos,

some thoughts about the post-war "Yellow 44":  it looks to me that the plane was repainted in glossy light blue overall.  This was done in occupied Austria, so it's possible that mechanics who overhauled this old Airacobra used German paints.  Did Luftwaffe use any glossy light blue or glossy light blue-gray oil paints?

I don't think that "Yellow 44" was intended to be decorative - it looks more utilitarian: single colour that was on hand, no victory stars or medals, only regimental and divisional markings (blue nose and yellow tail diagonal).  Red lines were necessary to separate markings from light blue plane...

so come back to Kozhevnikov's "43":



It does not look like the wing is dark from the bottom. So, what is that bright underwing area? Light blue?

Photo has been heavily "doctored" so it's only importance is that it shows plane's No...  bright line could have been added by the retoucher, it could be a reflection, or maybe the plane was photographed before the unersides have been repainted.  More relevant are better quality, unretouched photos:







I would summarize 438 iap/212 giap colours this way:

- War-time ?19? (January 1944) - blue spinner, white no. 19, white tail diagonal
- War-time ?5? (summer 1944) - blue spinner, white no. 5, white tail diagonal
- War-time ?34? (March 16, 1945) - blue spinner, blue no. 34, yellow tail diagonal
- War-time ?47? (April 16, 1945) - blue spinner, yellow no. 47, yellow tail diagonal
- Post-war ?56? (summer 1945) - blue spinner&nose, white no. 56, yellow tail diagonal
- Post-war ?43? (July 1945) - blue spinner&nose, white no. 43, yellow tail diagonal
- Post-war ?44? (1945-46) - blue spinner&nose, yellow no. 44, yellow tail diagonal

Underlined features are confirmed with photographic evidence (photos   ).  1945 Yelow tail diagonal has been confirmed for 2 Airacobras and inferred for 3 Airacobras... it would be better if there is more evidence, but at least there is some...

HTH,
KL

[KL]

Hi Misos,
this is a good candidate to be an "owner" of "White 56" :    http://allaces.ru/p/people.php?id=00000002370

Mayor Aleksandar Ivanovich Medvedev was a 212 giap squadron commander, Medvedev ended war with 10 personal victories, all scored in 1943/44 while flying P-39s.

"White 56" score shows 9+1 and Medvedev's score is 10+0, this would be a question for AIF experts...





Comment for Your profile should be:

P-39Q-15, 212 giap, A.I. Medvedev, summer 1945, Tulln an der Donau or Stockerau airfields, Austria

HTH,
KL

[66misos]

Hi KL,
Seems we already see the light at the end of tunnel.

...some thoughts about the post-war "Yellow 44":  it looks to me that the plane was repainted in glossy light blue overall.  This was done in occupied Austria, so it's possible that mechanics who overhauled this old Airacobra used German paints.  Did Luftwaffe use any glossy light blue...?

Yes, the very same Lichtblau that was probably used also on Sukhov's P-39 "50" repainting, more at http://www.mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/lendlease/p-39/misos/sukhov/sukhov.htm. So yes, P-39 "yellow 44" could be German Licht blau RLM76.

I will rework recent Cobras according to these final conclusions. A lot of work ahead, but at the end it will be nice collection.
Regards,
     66misos

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi,
I don't think that German military colors as RLM 76 were glossy. Anyway it was similar enough to later Soviet A-36g/m.
Regards
Massimo

[KL]

I don't think that German military colors as RLM 76 were glossy. Anyway it was similar enough to later Soviet A-36g/m.

Hi,
Kozhevnikov's "White 43" was photographed in July 1945, it was probably repainted in May-June 1945, maybe even earlier in March 1945.  This was way too early for any glossy Soviet paints (A-XXg or AGT).

"Yellow 44" was photographed later, in second half of 1945 or in 1946.  212 giap started replacing P-39s with P-63 in fall 1946, regiment was disbanded in early 1947.  A-XXg or AGT paints were available in 1946, but AGT-16 and A-36g were not. Last two paints appeared later in 1947.

Regards,
KL

[66misos]

Hi,
those German war paints were at least semi-gloss when new, if not very glossy:

early war:


late war:



This is from musem, but somehow like this could look Cobra freshly repainted with German light blue:


This plane is photographed under the very similar conditions like Cobra "44" - almost exactly from the side during bright sunny day with the sun almost directly behind photographer (note shadows) and surface looks also semi-gloss or glossy:



Regards,
   66misos

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi, I see. I'm aware that A-36g appeared later, I meant that the look of the color on a profile is similar between A-36g and RLM-76.
Regards
Massimo

[KL]

Hi Misos,
RLM-76 looks too anemic and too similar to at that time non-existent AGT-16.  

I would go with something more similar to "goluboi" which is described as "Capri blue"



Maybe glossy RLM-65 Helleblau, so you are also covered for 1946 AGT-7 (glossy AMT-7).

Regards,
KL

[66misos]

Hi KL,
here are two basic notes about light blue RLM 76, which can be found on different web sites:

1. In August 1944 a set of regulations Sammelmitteilung Nr. 2, emphasized that: "With the issue of this camouflage guide the industry is expressly forbidden to use any other camouflage types or colours, e.g. in response to special requests from front-line units, than those specified in the camouflage guide." It directed that RLM 65 was to be replaced on the underside of aircraft by RLM 76.

2. During the last year of the war...all painting charts and instructions (Oberfl?cheshutzliste or Os-liste) for aircraft...specifically state that the underside colour was to be RLM 76, or, to remain unpainted in natural metal.

3. The undersides of many German aircraft carrying everything from light blue, light gray, and even grey-green as their version of RLM 76.

Here are examples of the RLM colors interpretations http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/luftwaffe/colors.html

So at the end of/after the war RLM65 was not an option, only light blue RLM76. But its tones varied so much, that almost any light blue is possible. So I will change color of "Yellow 44" from bluegrey AMT-11 to some light blue shade somewhere among RLM interpretation and finito. Even so, every monitor will show it differently. The nose with spinner will be in the slightly different light blue color, separated by thin red line. Areas around nose guns probably dark grey.

...a good candidate to be an "owner" of "White 56": http://allaces.ru/p/people.php?id=00000002370
Mayor Aleksandar Ivanovich Medvedev was a 212 giap squadron commander, Medvedev ended war with 10 personal victories, all scored in 1943/44 while flying P-39s.
"White 56" score shows 9+1 and Medvedev's score is 10+0, this would be a question for AIF experts...
Comment for Your profile should be:
P-39Q-15, 212 giap, A.I. Medvedev, summer 1945, Tulln an der Donau or Stockerau airfields, Austria

Interesting info. It means, we could have another "named" Cobra.

Regards,
   66misos

[KL]

This PR Spitfire must be similar to the Spitfire in odd colours from Troy's first post:





BR112 "X" was shut down over Sicily on September 9, 1942 (pilot Sgt. Claude Weaver was captured). From  http://acesofww2.com/can/aces/weaver/

Similar location, similar Spitfire mark, similar roundel type...

Regards,
KL

[KL]

... So I will change color of "Yellow 44" from bluegrey AMT-11 to some light blue shade somewhere among RLM interpretation and finito. Even so, every monitor will show it differently. The nose with spinner will be in the slightly different light blue color, separated by thin red line. Areas around nose guns probably dark grey.

Good plan!  
Most important aspect is that the paint was glossy, so the plane should be made "shiny".

Colour could be tweaked to be somewhere between blue-gray AGT-11 (to my eye RLM-76 is also blue-gray) and pure blue AGT-7.  I.e. more bluish than AGT-11/RLM-76 and a bit more grayish than AGT-7.
We don't know exactly what paint was used; the best way around this is to make a colour that looks close to all 3 paints mentioned above...

KL

[Troy Smith]

This PR Spitfire must be similar to the Spitfire in odd colours from Troy's first post:





BR112 "X" was shut down over Sicily on September 9, 1942 (pilot Sgt. Claude Weaver was captured). From  http://acesofww2.com/can/aces/weaver/

Similar location, similar Spitfire mark, similar roundel type...

Regards,
KL

HI Konstantin

No, sorry.  The Spitfire in the colour pic is a one of the Malta Spitfires!  What these got painted is even more esoteric, and hotly debated !
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Malta-Spitfire-Vs-Colours-Markings/dp/8361421793

The Malta Spitfire spent most of their time flying over the sea, so the desert colours didn't work.


Anyway, this is a in-field repaint, looks to be something like "Extra Dark Sea Grey" 

note this captioned picture




It not the same as the PR Spitfire I initially posted,  which is most likely a dark blue, say like Dark Mediterranean Blue, or the mixed 'bosun' blue.  As I said before,  the PR units in the med used a darker blue than PRU Blue.

It's a complex subject!

HTH
T

[KL]

Hi Troy,
thanks for the explanation!  I naively believed that every blue Spitfire is a PR Spitfire. 

So, BR112 "X" was actually something like darker version of blue-gray AMT-11...

Cheers,
KL

[Massimo Tessitori]

Sorry, I think that light blue is too unlikely. Very few planes of any nation and age were painted in light blue, and they were all intended for high altitude use: PRU blue of Spitfires, blue of P-38, air superiority blue of F-15...
Nor the blue overall color, nor the high altitude use are in line with Soviet planes of the period.
Prewar planes were light grey. Postwar planes were grey-blue. Why should be anything so different in half way?
Besides, this would kill the contrast of the light blue utilized on the nose as marking.
Regards
Massimo