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Author Topic: Mijelson E-23 colour interpretation  (Read 6436 times)
Javier Planells
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« on: May 06, 2016, 04:55:44 AM »

Hi guys,

I'm currently building this little critter from the U-2 by ICM. Do you happen to have any idea about the colours? Maybe red with a blue "E-23" outlined in yellow?

http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/law1/ye23/ye23-3.jpg

http://www.airwar.ru/image/i/law1/ye23-i.jpg

I'm amiss with the scheme and your help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you!
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2016, 12:11:38 PM »

Hi,
looks very nice, but I haven't any information on it. Where and when was it photographed?
I see some resemblance to some R-5s adapted for polar flights, said to be painted red.
Regards
Massimo

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Javier Planells
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« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2016, 10:00:37 PM »

Yes, that's another favourite of mine, the ARK-5. According to airwar.ru the pictures were taken at an air race in Tushino, September 1935.

"Самолет названный Э-23 (У-2 экспериментальный 23-го завода), предполагался к участию в гонках спортивных самолетов в сентябре 1935 года. Э-23 со стартовым номером "21", нанесенным на передней части фюзеляжа, был запечатлен на фотографиях в Тушино, однако сведения о преодолении им маршрута перелета отсутствуют."

It's too glossy to be the green of that time if we compare it to the U-2 pictures I've seen online and on books. I don't know about blue, red or cherry red like Bashneft's Mijelson CCCP X-5. Maybe yellow captured on orthochromatic film?

I didn't find even plans for the mods. Closed cockpit, U-4 style, altered wing, but the cockpit cabanes layout is a mistery.

If you can dig out some other info, I'd really appreciate it.

Best regards!
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KL
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« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2016, 07:57:36 AM »

There is a colour profile of this experimental plane in the  "Легендарный У-2" book by Иванов В.П.and Петров Г.Ф.

E-23 is drawn as dark (navy) blue.  Number and letter on its tail are red with white "thickness".  Fuselage number 21 is also white...
According to this book the plane was finished to "mirror glossy" surface...



Designer's name in English is probably better spelled as Mihel'son....   Huh

This is from Shavrov

Э-23 (Экспериментальный самолет) - вариант учебного У-2, выпущенный в 1935 г. и предназначенный для выполнения перевернутых полетов. Автор - Николай Густавович Михельсон. Были изменены профиль крыльев и топливная система, на нижнем крыле сделаны посадочные щитки. Профиль крыльев - симметричный той же 9 %-ной толщины. Карбюратор - специальный, приспособленный для работы в перевернутом положении и для быстрой смены режимов полета. Соответственно были сделаны топливная проводка и дренажная система баков. Двигатель-М-11.

Самолет получился удачный, и полет на спине выполнялся без осложнений. Однако для некоторых фигур требовался двигатель более мощный. Самолет остался как интересный опытный образец.

Other U-2 you mentioned SSSR H-5 ( СПЛ (СП, лимузин ?Башнефть?) was designed by Barsuk



In same bbok, this plane is drawn as red and yellow.  Its rudder is stripped in yellow and white.

HTH,
KL
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Javier Planells
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« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2016, 01:24:20 AM »

That's very interesting, Konstantin. A really pretty scheme indeed. I was wondering if the trim to the red "E-23" could be yellow. It's tone is much greyer than the 21 on the front fuselage.

Massimo gives this value for dark blue, so it should make for an interesting variation of the U-2 usual schemes.



Are there any plans or 3-views of this airplane? I have a very clear idea about its layout but somethings are still a bit fuzzy. The flu got me down so I'm devoting to research this weekend.

All the best.
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KL
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« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2016, 12:38:35 AM »

Blue colour is darker than the chip you refer to.  It is close to A-9 oil paint in Massimo's table:



Similar dark blue colour can be seen on the ANT-25 nose.  Clips from the 1939 colour movie (World Expo in New York 1939-40):






... I was wondering if the trim to the red "E-23" could be yellow. It's tone is much greyer than the 21 on the front fuselage.


IMHO, light blue makes more sense with dark blue plane...  Or light gray - trim looks very similar to the colour of the plane in background.  This plane (Avianito-1) was  light gray with red trims.



Quote from 1935 magazine:

Серый, с двумя поперечными красными полосами на крыльях самолет привлекает всеобщее внимание. Это трехместный ?Авиавнито-1?.
from http://rustik68.narod.ru/kazan/aviaperelet-5500_1935.html

HTH,
KL
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 12:44:51 AM by KL » Logged
66misos
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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


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« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2016, 09:17:07 AM »

Hi,
here is a better picture of ANT-25 at Monino showing that dark blue:


However, blue on TsKB-19 engine cowling is apparently lighter:


Regards,
    66misos
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KL
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« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2016, 02:32:47 AM »

Following are the profiles published in the book "Legendary U-2" by Ivanov & Petrov:



IMHO, colours are convincing and information comes from authorities...

E-23 colour is known as Prussian blue.   Another name for the color is Berlin blue or, in painting, Parisian or Paris blue.




Packard presented to V. Chkalov by Stalin is similar colour:



HTH,
KL

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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2016, 07:37:40 AM »

Hi,
was E-23 a military plane? I am surprised to see red stars drawn under the wings of the profile.
I see something similar to a star under the wing here:


but it seems to be very moved backwards and without the 'legs'.
Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 01:30:58 PM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
Javier Planells
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« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2016, 12:45:26 AM »

Thanks for the heads up, KL, Massimo annd Misos Grin

From a saturation point of view, it looks like both ANT-25 and TsKB-19 share the same hue (Prussian Blue), ever so with a different shade. Don't know much about the subject though, so your opinion is highly respected. What colour on the humbrol range would you advise? For the E-23, I can't make out from the photographs a star under the wing but maybe my eyesight's not what it used to be.

That SPL looks really nice. I don't know who to take into account to paint it when I build it, for South Front instructions tell you to paint it cherry red and cream with no white stripes on the rudder.

South Front states that early series U-2s were clear doped inside the cockpit. On later releases the inside was painted silver up to the mid 30's when they received a coat of A-14. Would the time frame be correct? From a picture on the internet of a similarly canopied U-2 to the E-23, it would seem a very light colour but I can't find the picture right now.

Already built CCCP-C138 with the clear varnished interior and it looks nice, so I'm trying to build these kits right and do them honor.

Sorry for the long post. I have so many questions. The U-2 is my favourite soviet plane, hands down.

All the best.
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2016, 07:56:41 AM »

Hi Javier,
about the colors in Humbrol range, I think that 15 is appropriate for the darkest blue, and 14 for the nose of I-17.
The instructions on the internal colors look likely.
If you have already built models, it would be very nice to see some photos.
From the detail of the photo, I see something similar to a red star, but its position is strangely moved rearwards and seems to go out of the rear edge, so I suspect that it could be a reflection of some other thing on the polished surface.
Regards
Massimo
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Psy06
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« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2016, 08:10:45 AM »

Hi,
here is a better picture of ANT-25 at Monino showing that dark blue:

Regards,    66misos

Hi collegues, some notes.

It is not real ANT-25, it is maquette built for the movie, which was released in 1979. Since legendary times was preserved two authentic ANT-25, but Gromov's 25-1 was destroed at 1941 during the bombing of the Moscow region by Luftwaffe. Second ANT-25 is survived, and live now at Chkalov's home-museum, but you can't catch any info about his real painting, just "because" Smiley

This one real N25, but his external paints is modern.


Inside possibly real paints:
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 08:26:32 AM by Psy06 » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2016, 01:45:34 PM »

Hi Psy,
thank you for the information.
The Chkalov museum declares that the painting of the TsKB-15 is real (probably they mean that it was repainted accurately, because I think to see two layers of paint on photos). If so, I hope that they used the same care for the ANT-25.
The plane in Monino looks extremely convincing as a model.
Regards
Massimo
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Psy06
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« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2016, 08:43:43 PM »

Hi Psy,
thank you for the information.
The Chkalov museum declares that the painting of the TsKB-15 is real

Sorry to disappoint you, but the incompetence of the staff technical museums in Russia, reaching a legendary proportions. The TsKB-15 paint gives the origin of the nearest building store. Soviet aircraft paints usually have shades are not comparable with the modern palette.

Even on the car can be seen with the naked eye that it repainted.

By the way, Massimo, if you interested to see a real wartime AC colors, actually moderm Russia military still uses it!
I have long laughed when realized that the 3-color camouflage for armored vehicles painted in exactly the same paint colors that soviet aviation camouflage 1943!

I checked it personally, it is some colors!






Color variations at fotos just camera bias, actually paints identical.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 09:28:58 PM by Psy06 » Logged
Javier Planells
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« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2016, 01:02:30 AM »

Hi Javier,
about the colors in Humbrol range, I think that 15 is appropriate for the darkest blue, and 14 for the nose of I-17.
The instructions on the internal colors look likely.
If you have already built models, it would be very nice to see some photos.
From the detail of the photo, I see something similar to a red star, but its position is strangely moved rearwards and seems to go out of the rear edge, so I suspect that it could be a reflection of some other thing on the polished surface.
Regards
Massimo

Hi Massimo,

Yes, I just checked my tin cans and H-15 should do the trick. I may add a tiny drop of grey or white to light it up a bit for scale effect, but from the pictures it looks plain dark and glossy. Gotta finish my Yak-9 first, but U-2s are so easy to build and enjoyable Grin

Would love to post the VVS models built but lost most of the collection in a fire in 2012. I'm slowly bringing myself back into modeling and CCCP C138 is the first soviet plane I've finished in eight years. The old KP kit, but still worthwhile. I have to take better pictures of it.





The lower wing reflection looks like the silver/grey U-2 in the back, race number 44. I'm not sure if E-23 carried red stars on the wings, it was a civilian aircraft after all.

Have a great weekend.
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