1/48 ModelSvit Yak-1B white 6 from GC 3 Normandie-Niemen - some questions

[John Thompson]

In early (high back or "razor back") Yak-1s, engine coolant piping ran through the wing fairing.  At the same time when fuselage back was lowered, wing fairing was made "tighter" (this change probably isn't noticeable in any model which represent both "early" and "late" Yak-1s).  This change meant that the piping had to be moved inside the cockpit.  Engine coolant piping was normally painted in green, section that was in the cockpit was insulated.

HTH,
KL

Here's an image which, IIRC, was originally created and posted on Scalemodels.ru by M. Golovanov; it shows a difference in the shape of the wing root fairing, Yak-1 (left) versus Yak-1b (right). If you look carefully, you can see the "hot pipe" running within the wing root fairing of the Yak-1, just as you say:



John

[Basilisk]

Thank you KL for the great information on the harnesses.

Yak-1b drawings wrom Modelist-Konstruktor (representing Saratov museum Yak-1).

Do you know in which issue of Modelist-Konstruktor the Yak-1b drawings had been published?

Here's an image which, IIRC, was originally created and posted on Scalemodels.ru by M. Golovanov; it shows a difference in the shape of the wing root fairing, Yak-1 (left) versus Yak-1b (right). If you look carefully, you can see the "hot pipe" running within the wing root fairing of the Yak-1, just as you say:

Great information John, thank you for providing the pictures with drawings.

Cheers, Peter

[KL]

Источник: "Моделист-Конструктор" 1975, №1

scans at http://hobbyport.ru/avia/yak_1.htm

[xan]

Hello Peter,
sorry I didn't see the topic before....

well I have some pics of hte famous Durand plane.

Durand paint his plane after de la Poype. Both were inspirated not in Chenault's flying tigers , but in RAF 112th squadron



I have some other pic of the plane


you know this one it's taken of the video.


this one is taken at the same time than the first one you show.


this one is quite interesting


this last one is clear and show the noise.
I don't think the white marks are old winter camouflage but fish scale representation...

Xan

[Basilisk]

Thanks for posting these pictures Xan. By the way, I am finding your work in progress of your Yak-1b build at Master194.com very helpful in building this kit.

Yes, the nose of this plane is a bit tricky and I am still undecided how to do it. I am not sure if there is any white left at all from the winter camouflage. Now the question is, was the original camouflage on the front of the nose black or green?

If green, the fish skin simulation looks to be painted in black. But if the nose is black, it would have been much harder to paint the fish skin in the lighter colour.

I think this picture shows the contrast of the colours well.


I tend to think that the darker colour was added (painted on) to show the fish skin, but I believe that the front of the nose was in black on the original camouflage - so something doesn't add up  . Any other opinions on this?

Cheers, Peter

[KL]

Hi Xan,

Durand paint his plane after de la Poype.

I agree that the shark mouth on Durand's Yak was painted after it had been painted on de la Poype's Yak.  

IMHO, on de la  Poype's Yak, the shark mouth was painted in mid-April and on Durand's yak, two weeks later, in first week of May.  If you watch the movie carefully, you will notice that it was shot on (at least!) two occasions:

- first part (group of pilots walking along dispersal, two pilots playing chess, alarm and two pilots starting engines of their planes) was filmed when there was still some snow on the ground so the Yak-1 was in winter camouflage
- second part (planes taking off, flying above the airfield, landing, etc.) was filmed later, when snow completely disappeared and planes were in black-green, "summer" camouflage

Two facts help to date when shark mouth was painted on Durand's Yak:

-Temporary winter camouflage was removed from "Normandie" Yaks at the end of April
-photo below (Durand, Lefevr and Mahe) was taken before May 07 when Mahe was shot down and captured



It looks that both de la Poype's and Durand's plane had shark mouth painted for the movie.  It's interesting that Durnd's Yak appears in several photo sessions (all probably made in May 1943), but not after May 1943.  De la Poype's Yak is totally absent from photos taken after April 1943... Any idea why? 

Both were inspirated not in Chenault's flying tigers , but in RAF 112th squadron

IIRC Flying tigers as an inspiration were mentioned in posts related to your Yak-1 built.  I have also found Flying tigers mentioned in one Russian book; where is info about the RAF 112th squadron as inspiration coming from???

Cheers,
KL

[KL]

Correction!
according to http://normandie-niemen.forumpro.fr/t41-camouflage-yak-1-lefevre-01-05-43



Photo was taken on May 10, 1943.  No "6" was flown by A. Durand, No "29" by D. Beguin and No "14" by Lefevre.

No "29" was lost on May 14, 1943...

HTH,
KL 

[KL]

According to RIA Novosti



photo was taken on May 21, 1943 by photo correspondent Sergey Loskutov

better copy



HTH,
KL

[xan]

Hi Xan

Hi Konstantin, how are you?

where is info about the RAF 112th squadron as inspiration coming from???

I wanted to answer you it was wroten in the de la Poype 's memories.
I look et them and you were right, I was wrong



it was the flying tigers, I don't know why I was convinced it was the 112sq...
Peter , sorry , hope you read this...

Xan

[Basilisk]

Thank you KL and Xan for the great information - very helpful. I was wondering too about the 112 Sqdn connection. But what was the connection to the Flying Tiger unit in China?

So the pictures are dated early May 1943 and with no white on the aircraft. That is a start What was the camouflage on the nose before the sharkmouth was added? Black? and if so, was it black on both sides?

But I still have a model to make, and I finally finished the cockpit. It was a bit of a journey to get there and with the information received here, I think the result is acceptable.

The fuselage came together with a bit persuasion.


I fitted a new Eduard Russian steel harness which has harnesses for LaGGs and Yaks. But something just didn't look right

Well it seems Eduard is not only having scale issues when making kits, but also with PE parts

Left Eduard, right GoNzA - what did I say about scale, about 1/3rd too small so close to 1/72. And yes, I checked if they sent me the wrong scale PE, but it is the 1/48 set.

here the comparison on the seat.

What a difference. Sorry I had already removed the back harness before I took the picture. Now the GoNzA harness is maybe a tad over scale. But as the ModelSvit seat is a bit too large, they work well together.

I used Gunze Mr. Metal Primer for the first time (applied by brush) on the GoNzA harness and I am impressed - no paint pealed off when handling, folding and attaching the harness - a rather tricky venture in the closed cockpit.

Finally the Fuselage and wing with the cockpit floor was ready to go together


As with the fuselage assembly, this needed a bit of pressure to make it fit.


And here the finished cockpit.

I am glad I added the coolant pipes as they can be seen rather well.





I will fit the gunsight with mounting bar later in the build when attaching all the other small parts.

If I build this kit again, I would sand down the seat pan a bit to make it smaller and reducing the with of the edge, which does look too wide.

Thanks for watching.
Cheers, Peter

[KL]

Hi Xan,  

good to see the source!
"Flying Tigers" make Normandie-Niemen history more colourfull!  It is interesting that, at least some, French airmen identified themselves with a group of adventurers fighting in a far away country.
By spring 1943, when Marcelin painted first shark mouth on de la Poype's Yak-1, "Flying Tigers" had became a legend.  They (pilots and their planes) were portrayed in news, in magazines, in comics. A popular movie "Flying Tigers" with John Wayne in lead role was released in autumn 1942. French airmen had a plenty of opportunities to see P-40s with shark mouth painted on their engine cowlings...

These are some of the photos from March 30, 1942 Life magazine http://www.cbi-theater.com/flyingtigers/flying_tigers.html





clips from "Flying Tigers" movie:






and how they really looked...







HTH,
KL

[xan]

yes ,
and before integrate the normandie fighter group, de la Poype was a free french in the RAF in great britain until agust of 1942 (he was the wingman of Paddy Finuicane in the 602th squadron), so he could easily have eard about the flying tigers...

Xan

[KL]

So the pictures are dated early May 1943 and with no white on the aircraft. That is a start What was the camouflage on the nose before the sharkmouth was added? Black? and if so, was it black on both sides?

Durand's Yak was probably one of the original 10 planes received in Ivanovo training center.  Those planes were made in December 1942 and they were most likely camouflaged in same black-green pattern as old Yak-1s







Most likely, as soon as the white temporary paint had been washed away, plane was partially repainted mostly in green (and possibly some black?).  This old Yak-1 made in autumn 1942 (note straight oil cooler intake) shows how repainting was done:

[Basilisk]

Interesting to read that the Flying Tigers where the inspiration for the sharkmouth.

Durand's Yak was probably one of the original 10 planes received in Ivanovo training center.  Those planes were made in December 1942 and they were most likely camouflaged in same black-green pattern as old Yak-1s

Most likely, as soon as the white temporary paint had been washed away, plane was partially repainted mostly in green (and possibly some black?).  This old Yak-1 made in autumn 1942 (note straight oil cooler intake) shows how repainting was done:

Thank you KL for your explanation. I am undecided how the fish skin was painted. To me it looks the skin was painted in the darker colour, but if the nose was black to start with, that is rather unlikely. But maybe the nose was re-painted in green when removing the white winter camouflage in preparation for the sharkmouth and fish skin.

I am currently finishing off the fuselage, and was looking for some pictures showing the gun opening above the pictures without success. The only pictures I found have been from early two guns Yak-1, but I believe the way it looks on the Yak-1b is different.

Does anyone know of a picture showing this part of the fuselage with the gun in place?

Cheers, Peter

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Peter,

I am currently finishing off the fuselage, and was looking for some pictures showing the gun opening above the pictures without success. The only pictures I found have been from early two guns Yak-1, but I believe the way it looks on the Yak-1b is different.

I found a nice photo in factory on Yak-1 of S. Kuznesov (or a similar name), pag.32, but I have difficulty with my scanner.
The slot is oval both on its front and rear, and made with a separate moulded sheet. The gun hole has an oblique cut.
It looks similar to that of Yak-3 as seen here http://scalemodels.ru/modules/photo/viewcat.php?id=11650&cid=343&min=12&orderby=dateA&show=12 or other Yak fighters of 1943/44.
Regards
Massimo