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1/48 ModelSvit Yak-1B white 6 from GC 3 Normandie-Niemen - some questions
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Author Topic: 1/48 ModelSvit Yak-1B white 6 from GC 3 Normandie-Niemen - some questions  (Read 37848 times)
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #45 on: August 01, 2016, 09:15:44 AM »

Hi,
the manifold could be to prevent the engine's heat from below to cause warping of the barrel.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2016, 07:35:51 PM »


...  the 06-118  piloted by Durand arrived in Ivanovo the 3rd of march 1943. 16 planes (new planes) arrived in Ivanovo between the 27 of january and 25th of March.


Hi Xan,
do you have serial numbers for other "Normandie" squadron Yak-1s? if we know the series it we can estimate when each plane was made.

-Lowered back and round-view canopy were introduced with 94th series in late September 1942. During the 4th quarter, Saratov Zavod 292 produced (more or less...) steady 300 planes per month in 6 series, 50 planes each.

-Improvements were introduced gradually, so the definitive Yak-1b appeared only in December 1942 with 110th series.

-In 1st quarter of 1943, Zavod 292 produced about 250 planes per month (i.e. 5 series of 50 planes per month).

Consequently, Durand's Yak (6th plane of 118th series) was made in late January 1943.  It was definitively camouflaged in temporary winter white MK-7 in Saratov factory.

HTH,
KL
« Last Edit: August 02, 2016, 07:40:39 PM by KL » Logged
xan
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« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2016, 11:42:02 PM »

this is a part of Marc Chassard work .
don't take care of the AII and AMT painting suposiiton at this time he worked with pilawskii who was in those time the only VVS specialist known in France.
All his work his very reliable. He wrote a paper about the NN first campaign.
I can give the PDF for those who can read in french



Xan
« Last Edit: August 02, 2016, 11:52:27 PM by xan » Logged

KL
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« Reply #48 on: August 03, 2016, 08:11:22 PM »

Thank you very much Xan!  This is really valuable information.

It looks that almost all of the Yaks in this list were new at the time when they arrived to NN.  They arrived only 1-1.5 months after they left production line at Zavod 292 in Saratov.

It's interesting that there were 3 airplanes with factory number "33".  One was renumbered to "13", another became "30" while plane flown by Castelain remained with its original number "33"










This Yak was the 33rd plane of 110th series, the last series with old straight oil cooler intake and pointed spinner...

Regards,
KL
  
« Last Edit: August 03, 2016, 10:47:12 PM by KL » Logged
xan
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« Reply #49 on: August 03, 2016, 11:52:05 PM »

the third one with the number 33



I have this one too...



Xan

« Last Edit: August 03, 2016, 11:55:22 PM by xan » Logged

Basilisk
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« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2016, 03:45:08 AM »

Wow, a lot has happened in this thread when I was busy putting glue and filler to plastic  Shocked

As always some great information which is much appreciated as my knowledge on the subject is very limited which is the reason I can't really contribute much to the discussion.

It would be good to know if the protrusion of the tube had some function.

My guess is that its purpose was to prevent gunpowder gasses entering engine compartment and cockpit...

That does make sense as the Yak-1 had no fire-wall and so the gases (I assume) could enter the cockpit freely. But it doesent explain why the pipe did extrude and wasn't flush  Cry

Yak-1b preserved in Saratov museum is representative for early Yak-1b, similar to those Yak-1s flown by Normandie Squadron. So protruding tube cut at angle is almost certainly what was on Yak-1s flown by the French pilots.

Now that I added a flush pipe to my model, you tell me that it should be as on the Saratov museum aircraft  Undecided

Fortunately not too late to change it, but a bit more callenging as I have now the part with the gun opening attached to the fuselage. Also had to order some larger brass tubes as 1mm (the largest size I have) looked too small.

Hi,
the manifold could be to prevent the engine's heat from below to cause warping of the barrel.
Regards
Massimo

Maybe, but how about the canon placed between the cylinder blocks?

this is a part of Marc Chassard work .
don't take care of the AII and AMT painting suposiiton at this time he worked with pilawskii who was in those time the only VVS specialist known in France.
All his work his very reliable. He wrote a paper about the NN first campaign.
I can give the PDF for those who can read in french



Xan

Thank you Xan for providing this list. I am surprised to see that the aircraft supplied to the "Normandie" squadron came from so many different batches (series) even when delivered at the same time and some aircraft from earlier batches had been delivered later. I would appreciate a copy of the PDF, even though my French is a bit rusty.

Consequently, Durand's Yak (6th plane of 118th series) was made in late January 1943.  It was definitively camouflaged in temporary winter white MK-7 in Saratov factory.

Great to know that 06 was from batch 118 and was delivered with temporary winter white in place. But am I correct in saying that it was painted in the black / green camouflage before the white winter white was applied?

One of the remaining puzzles I have to work out is how the fish skin effect was painted onto the nose.


After removing the white winter camouflage, the nose should have been in black which would meent that the lighter colour (green) was painted on to create the skin effect.

But to my eye, it loos that the darker colour (black) was used to paint the skin effect, which would mean that the nose had to be painted in the lighter colour (green).

Was there some repainting done when the temporary white was removed and the nose could have been painted green instead of black?

In addition, what was the colour of the spinner? I would think white as yellow was rather unlikely as it was a colour used widely on Luftwaffe aircraft.

Any opinions and suggestion would be much appreciated.
Cheers, Peter
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2016, 07:14:37 AM »

Hi,
Quote
Maybe, but how about the canon placed between the cylinder blocks?
the heat from the cylinders reached this barrel in symmetrical way and caused not warping. The barrels of the UBS were exposed to heat from below and to cold air flow on the top so they could warp.
Regards
Massimo
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Basilisk
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« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2016, 08:00:19 AM »

Fair point Massimo. What is your view how the fish skin was painted on the nose?

Cheers, Peter
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KL
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« Reply #53 on: August 04, 2016, 06:32:28 PM »


the manifold could be to prevent the engine's heat from below to cause warping of the barrel.


this tube didn't have anything to do with the thermal protection of the gun. It's name газоотводная труба explains its purpose - to collect and vent out (discharge, eliminate) gunpowder gasses.  The tube was installed in front of the machine gun barrel (not around the barrel) so that the gun fired through the tube.

There were 3 such tubes on MiG-3



2 ShKAS mgs are removed, their gas tubes are still in place.   
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KL
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« Reply #54 on: August 04, 2016, 06:49:19 PM »

Hi Peter,

Quote
Quote from: KL on July 31, 2016, 01:30:17 AM
Yak-1b preserved in Saratov museum is representative for early Yak-1b, similar to those Yak-1s flown by Normandie Squadron. So protruding tube cut at angle is almost certainly what was on Yak-1s flown by the French pilots.

Now that I added a flush pipe to my model, you tell me that it should be as on the Saratov museum aircraft

Fortunately not too late to change it, but a bit more callenging as I have now the part with the gun opening attached to the fuselage. Also had to order some larger brass tubes as 1mm (the largest size I have) looked too small.

Sorry, Yak-1 development was quite convoluted, you have to read the hole story to understand it (and I didn't...)

Quote
Great to know that 06 was from batch 118 and was delivered with temporary winter white in place. But am I correct in saying that it was painted in the black / green camouflage before the white winter white was applied?

Correct, regardless of the season planes were finished in permanent nitro-cellulose paints (green AMT-4 and black AMT-6).  During the winter on top of the camouflage paints, washable white MK-7 was applied.  This paint was based on kaseine (milk protein) and it was washed with hot/lukewarm water at the end of winter. "Normandie" squadron washed their Yak-1s at the end of April 1943.

Quote
it loos that the darker colour (black) was used to paint the skin effect, which would mean that the nose had to be painted in the lighter colour (green).

Was there some repainting done when the temporary white was removed and the nose could have been painted green instead of black?

Yes, it looks that the black nose had been repainted in green and then the fish scales were painted with black paint.

Quote
In addition, what was the colour of the spinner? I would think white as yellow was rather unlikely as it was a colour used widely on Luftwaffe aircraft.

IMHO, spinner was glossy white

HTH,
KL  
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 08:00:06 PM by KL » Logged
KL
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« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2016, 07:01:32 PM »


I have this one too...




Great photo, white border around the star is interesting and probably unique to this plane.

Do you have any photos of No "1"?  That plane (105th series) also had old straight oil cooler air intake and pointed spinner.

Regards,
KL
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xan
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« Reply #56 on: August 04, 2016, 10:42:36 PM »

No I haven't. This plane was broken very soon in Ivanovo.
Xan
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #57 on: August 05, 2016, 10:08:58 AM »

Hi,
Quote
2 ShKAS mgs are removed, their gas tubes are still in place.   
Interesting, the rear part looks closed apart for the hole of the barrel.
Regards
Massimo
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Basilisk
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« Reply #58 on: August 05, 2016, 11:56:15 AM »

I came across this picture in my quest for pictures of the gas tube extruding which I haven't seen before.


It is a 12.7mm UBS mounted to a Yak-9T which is maybe similar as it was mounted in the Yak-1b.

Cheers, Peter
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KL
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« Reply #59 on: August 05, 2016, 06:37:07 PM »

In English language literature, "gazootvodnaya truba" is called BLAST TUBE

at https://www.google.com/patents/US2271700 there is a 1942 US patent for the "machine gun blast tube". Its purpose is described as:

is to provide means for shielding or screening ,the interior of the wing .or other hollow body for accommodating a gun, from air pressure and gases around the barrel of the gun

Blast tubes on Me-109F



HTH,
KL
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