Sovietwarplanes
May 20, 2019, 08:29:32 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This forum replaces the old sovietwarplanes.com whose domain has expired in January 2017. It has been updated with the posts of the year 2016.
The new location of the site 'Sovietwarplanes pages' is at http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
Author Topic: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?  (Read 5240 times)
marluc
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 418



« on: June 26, 2016, 12:26:41 AM »

Hello:

Regarding this well known picture:



This I-16 is always marked as Type 10 in books and profiles,such as this one:



The thing is that in the photo above,there is no remarkable feature to accurately identify it as Type 10. Looking closely at the propeler blade,it looks wider than the one fitted to the Type 10s. And the red star painted on the fixed portion of the tail resemble the ones of the overhauled I-16s of 1942,shown by KL in another thread. Could this I-16 be one of the overhauled planes?
Any comment will be very appreciated,thanks in advance. Greetings.

Martin
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 12:39:09 AM by marluc » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5692


« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2016, 10:02:54 AM »

Hi Martin,
the plane is shown on Squadron Signal n.162 too, always described as type 10. I think that this identification is due to the apparent lack of an air intake on the top of the frontal plate. It can't be a 17 because of the lack of the prominent wing guns.
Another type 10 with ski gear (and the arrangement of the landing gear well) is visible at pag.28 of the same booklet.
Differently from the profile shown here, the plane of the photo hasn't doors on the landing gear leg.
The size of the stars doesn't mean anything particular, they were all painted on after the war outbreak.
The plane is often depicted as having green upper part of wings and tail, but probably it is an illusion due to the light coming low on the horizon.
The upper and front panels of the cowling are black probably because they came from another plane (as the rudder), not because of scratch of the paint. The lower side panel looks white.
I doubt that there was a star on the fuselage, at least in the position shown on the profile, because it should be visible on the photo. If it was, it should be moved forward. There is a small dark triangle visible on your photo in a gap between the men that could give the idea of the lower tip of a star. It looks a bit too thin, could be another thing.
When compared to the photo of overhauled 6 in the depot, we see that this plane had a wide star not only on the tail but on the fuselage too, but the photo of the plane with skis excludes a so wide star could be hidden by the men.
Regards
Massimo

Logged
marluc
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 418



« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2016, 02:46:02 PM »

I think that this identification is due to the apparent lack of an air intake on the top of the frontal plate.  the profile, because it should be visible on the photo.
Thanks Massimo,I didn?t noticed this important detail,now I can confirm it?s a Type 10.
Regarding the paint scheme,I agree with the wings  and tail horizontal surfaces not being green,are they just white,another shade of white or aluminum paint? The cowling could be a replacement painted in green instead of black. And,if theres is a star on the fuselage side,it should be as small as the one on the replacement rudder.
Your comments are very appreciated and helpful,greetings.

Martin
Logged
KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2016, 05:25:26 AM »

Hi Martin,
it looks that the better quality version of this photo is available from "Rosiya segodn'a" agency at http://visualrian.ru/ru/site/gallery/index/id/812629/context/%7B%22q%22%3A%22%5Cu041d%5Cu0438%5Cu043a%5Cu043e%5Cu043b%5Cu0430%5Cu0439+%5Cu041d%5Cu043e%5Cu0432%5Cu0430%5Cu043a%22%2C%22field%22%3A%22author%22%2C%22orientation%22%3A%22all%22%7D/



This agency also provides some information about the photo:

- photo was taken by photo correspondent Nikolay Novak
- this I-16 and its pilots fought at the Kalinin Front

This photo was published in Russian magazine not long time ago and the caption said the photo was taken during the Battle for Moscow in winter 1941/42.  This complies with the Kalinin Front info from above (Kalinin Front was north-east of Moscow).

Judging by its appearance, this I-16 definitively fits into the "overhauled planes" story:  in autumn/winter 1941 at the time when large part of aviation industry had to be evacuated to east, number of newly made planes significantly dropped.  It was realized that these low numbers could be compensated by overhauling damaged planes, old planes from storage even planes that were given to sport clubs (some R-5s and U-2s).  These overhauled planes played important role during the period necessary for evacuated factories to start normal production.

IMHO, this I-16 colours are:
- Fuselage top is silver.  In this case silver was applied over original green as winter camouflage
- Fuselage gun covers behind engine cowling are glossy white
- Engine cowling is green. All Type 10 planes had green painted cowlings in factory.
- propeller is black
- fuselage underside is light blue
- wings and horizontal stabilizer are probably white with underlying green still visible...
- many repair patches on the fuselage are same colour as wings (?)

Markings:
- There is a single digit number under the cockpit door. Lower part of this number is visible between pilots 3 and 4, it could be number "3" or "5"
- Large red stars were standard at that time. Rudder star is nonstandard size, rudder as its location is unusual.
- lack of fuselage star is nonstandard

HTH,
KL      
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 05:35:20 AM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5692


« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2016, 12:32:47 PM »

Yes, it seems that there is a number visible between the men,  At a second look, what seemed a patch on the rear fuselage could be the top part of a second digit. So, the plane could be numbered 35 or 55, without any star on the fuselage.
Regards
Massimo
Logged
KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2016, 03:02:43 AM »

On a second look, this would be a very unusual font stile, number would be quite large and hard to fit behind all those people...

A small triangle, also under the door and in front of the pilot no 4, could be the only visible part of the fuselage star... Since it is almost completely covered by pilots no 4 and 5, this star has to be small, smaller than rudder star.

Regards,
KL   
Logged
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5692


« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2016, 10:12:22 AM »

Hi,
I've made some simulations.

Here is the hypothyzed number... but one has to say that there are many other patches on the fuselage.


Here is the biggest red star that can be hidden on the base of the small triangle visible between the men. Looks more convincing.



Regards
Massimo
Logged
KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2016, 12:39:15 AM »

Hi Massimo,
interesting pictures.

I agree, star looks much more convincing.
I also think now that the rectangle between the pilots has to be a patch because it looks the same as other fuselage patches... The only difference is that this rectangle is oriented parallel to the wing root trailing edge.

The question from the beginning of the thread was "which Type?".  It is usually hard or impossible to use Type designation for overhauled planes because they were usually put together from parts that were available at the moment.  So, this I-16 may have had Type 24 fuselage, M-25 engine and Type 5 wings.  It should be noted that the "Type" as seen in modern literature, has been used by Zavod 21 only and refers only to planes made by Zavod 21. For VVS, its pilots and mechanics, this was simply "I-16 M-25"

Regards,
KL
« Last Edit: June 30, 2016, 01:00:05 AM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5692


« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2016, 01:50:04 PM »

Hi Konstantin,
of course, the plane could be an hybrid. Certainly the rudder is from another plane, and I don't know about the fuselage. But the wings of type 5 have the ailerons extending up to the fuselage, and this is not the case. I think that all we see on the photo is compatible with what is commonly intended as type 10.
Regards
Massimo
Logged
marluc
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 418



« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2016, 10:33:03 PM »

Hiello.

Gentlemen,thanks for your comments. .
KL,that?s a picture of better quality,and the useful information gives this I-16 a time and a place.
Massimo,fuselage star looks convincing to me too.
Regarding the paint,as sometimes silver paint looks like gray in B/W pictures:
-Fuselaje top in white
-Wing and all tail surfaces (including replacement) in silver
Could be an option?
Greetings.

Martin 
Logged
KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2016, 06:30:24 AM »


Regarding the paint,as sometimes silver paint looks like gray in B/W pictures:
-Fuselaje top in white
-Wing and all tail surfaces (including replacement) in silver


Hi Martin,

IMHO, it's the other way around;
- fuselage upper surfaces (with 99% certainty) are silver
- Fuselage underside light blue
- Wings and horizontal tail-planes, most likely semi-transparent white over standard olive green

This I-16 seems to be one of those planes which were overpainted with "permanent" white or silver paint instead of being overpainted with temporary (washable) white MK-7.

Regards,
KL   
Logged
JP
Administrator
Sr. Member
*****
Posts: 294


WWW
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2016, 09:36:51 PM »

My .02 in whatever currency you use:

Agree with KL.  Good catch on the small fuselage star.  I think with some confidence the dark rectangle on the spine is a patch and not a second digit based on the way it terminates at the forward part.  May be right on the lower patch as well.  If only they'd trained crew not to stand in front of the planes in that way!  Smiley
Logged
66misos
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1474

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


WWW
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2016, 09:45:53 AM »

Hi,
here are my 0,02 Euro to discussion Wink
- there are sharp shadows of the pilots on the ground - it is bright sunny day,
- the cone at the very end of the fuselage just bellow rudder has the darker color than fuselage, same like vertical and horizontal stabilizer,
- note the demarcation area (I intentionally do not say "line") between fuselage color and stabilizers color on the root of the tail and horizontal stabilizer - it is quite blurry and shaky, it looks like typical soviet work with the brush,
- the color on the tail, horiz. stabilizers and upper wings is too homogenous, it does not look like semi-transparent white over standard olive green. It looks like thick enough non-transparent layer of the color without strong reflections on the direct sun - some light grey?


Note the white on the rudder - again it does not look hmogenous:


- metal plates in front of the wind shield (gun covers?) are also darker than fuselage, similar/same like tail,
- color of the patches - green or yellow/beige fabric?

White fuselage:


Silver fuselage:



Silver (?) Su-2 in the background:


Silver or white Cobras?


Regards,
   66misos
Logged

barneybolac
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 320


« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2016, 08:59:08 AM »

Is there a likely squadron this aircraft served with?
Logged
KL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1678


« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2016, 09:41:52 PM »

Is there a likely squadron this aircraft served with?

No, only "Kalinin Front, winter 1941-42"

Yak-7 below was also photographed at Kalinin Front in February 1942:





Same for these LaGG-3 and MiG-3s, "Kalinin Front, winter 1941-1942":







« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 09:46:08 PM by KL » Logged
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!