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Author Topic: Polikarpov I-16 with skis,which Type?  (Read 5273 times)
KL
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« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2016, 11:07:48 PM »

Photo from Maslov's book that may be somewhat related to the "Polikarpov I-16 with skis" from the begging of this thread



Caption readss something like "Repairs of damaged I-16s at Kaluga overhaul base in 1942"

Kaluga is only 150km from  Moscow, it was winter (workers are dressed for winter) both I-16 are on skis.

HTH,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2016, 07:01:26 AM »

Interesting image. Size and position of the stars isn't exactly the same, but they could be related. I wonder if anyone could recognize the type, maybe from the engine of the second plane.
Regards
Massimo
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barneybolac
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« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2016, 10:08:14 PM »

Is there a likely squadron this aircraft served with?

No, only "Kalinin Front, winter 1941-42"

Yak-7 below was also photographed at Kalinin Front in February 1942:





Same for these LaGG-3 and MiG-3s, "Kalinin Front, winter 1941-1942":









Slightly confused by the answer. Sorry.
Are you saying that the units were unknown or they were collectively known as the Kalinin Front air force for example?

Also looking at the link you provided for the photo & using Google translation from the image it lists some interesting text.

http://visualrian.ru/ru/site/gallery/index/id/812629/context/%7B%22history%22%3A%7B%22category%22%3A%22wars%22%2C%22period%22%3A%221980%22%7D%7D/


Великая Отечественная война. 1942. Калининский фронт. 31-я армия. Летчики Н-ского полка перед вылетом на задание. = The Great Patriotic War. 1942. Kalinin Front. 31st Army. Pilots N-sky regiment before leaving for the job.


What would the N-sky regiment be? Plus the 31st Army?   
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2016, 10:30:33 PM »

N-sky sounds similar to Nevsky. 31 army was an huge ensemble of units, including ground units and fighting on that front. Perhaps one can find some list of fighters regiments on that front.
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barneybolac
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« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2016, 06:51:35 AM »

N-sky sounds similar to Nevsky. 31 army was an huge ensemble of units, including ground units and fighting on that front. Perhaps one can find some list of fighters regiments on that front.

Some Wikapedia information listing some useful stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalinin_Front

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_Air_Army
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KL
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« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2016, 09:41:15 PM »

Interesting image. Size and position of the stars isn't exactly the same, but they could be related.

I don't think that exact location of fuselage star is relevant.  Size could be somewhat more relevant (at least it shows weather those who painted it followed official orders).  IMHO, there wasn't a combination of star location and size that would be specific to each maintenance shop or overhaul depot, certainly nothing like black outlined stars typical for Zavod 153.


I wonder if anyone could recognize the type, maybe from the engine of the second plane.

This is a repair workshop, not a series production line: I-16 in foreground could be (and probably is) different type then the I-16 in background.  We have seen photos from Zavod 51 which show old I-16s (Type 5 or 10) overhauled together with late I-16s (Type 18 or later).



Back to Kaluga photo:  note the tail of the I-16 in foreground - tailfin and rudder came from two different planes: Tailfin has remnants of tactical number "3" and rudder has half of red star



This image shows again how many overhauled planes were composites put together from parts of different planes.  Most overhauled planes were armed with underwing RS rockets - this type of armament wasn't typical to any type before Type 29.  So, the question of overhauled I-16 Type doesn't always have a straightforward answer...

HTH,
KL

PS:  another (heavily retouched) photo that may have been taken at the same overhaul base at Kaluga



This photo was published in Modelist-konstruktor magazine and caption says it was Type 5.  Photo was obviously taken in summer, probably before the war...
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 09:47:22 PM by KL » Logged
KL
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« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2016, 10:11:38 PM »


Slightly confused by the answer. Sorry.
Are you saying that the units were unknown or they were collectively known as the Kalinin Front air force for example?

Also looking at the link you provided for the photo & using Google translation from the image it lists some interesting text.

http://visualrian.ru/ru/site/gallery/index/id/812629/context/%7B%22history%22%3A%7B%22category%22%3A%22wars%22%2C%22period%22%3A%221980%22%7D%7D/


Великая Отечественная война. 1942. Калининский фронт. 31-я армия. Летчики Н-ского полка перед вылетом на задание. = The Great Patriotic War. 1942. Kalinin Front. 31st Army. Pilots N-sky regiment before leaving for the job.


What would the N-sky regiment be? Plus the 31st Army?   

N-sky was a phrase used in Soviet press to denote that the military didn't want to disclose units real designation/name...  Absolutely nothing to do with "Nevski"  Grin

Units designation/name was always treated as a military secret.  In press, units were sometimes referred after their commander; "regiment commanded by ..." or after very general geographic location; "regiment fighting at Stalingrad".  In this case it was disclosed that the regiment was subordinated to Kalinin Front (the highest command level before Stavka).

Text attached to image doesn't say much. Something like "RAF Squadron of the 8th Army, Libyan front..."

HTH,
KL   
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2016, 10:22:33 PM »

Hi,
I've noticed the digit on the tail, it would turn into a nice profile, but the nose shape and color would be only hypothetical.
The prewar plane is nice too, it seems to have a grey or grey-silver livery, rarely seen on I-16s. It has a very visible gunsight that led to its identification as type 5.
Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2016, 10:43:14 PM »


Useful stuff indeed, hope you understand now what and where was Kalinin Front...  Smiley

There is even more info at Russian wikipedia at https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-%D1%8F_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B4%D1%83%D1%88%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%8F_(%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A0)

There is a status listing at May 16, 1942.  3rd Air Army comprised of 9 fighter regiments among other aviation regiments. Most of those fighter regiments were equiped with Lagg-3s.  But...

There was only one fighter regiment with I-16s subordinated to 256 iad (Fighter Division) - 728 iap

more about the 728 iap at https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/728-%D0%B9_%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BA

interesting info at the beginning of the page:
Сформирован в г. Чимкент Казахской ССР (Среднеазиатский военный округ), из летчиков-инструкторов находившейся в эвакуации Чугуевской военной авиационной школы пилотов (ЧВАШП), в ноябре-декабре 1941 года. На вооружении при формировании имел 20 отремонтированных в авиационных ремонтных мастерских ЧВАШП (ныне ? Чугуевский авиационный ремонтный завод) самолётов И-16.

Translation:
Formed in Shymkent Kazakh SSR (Central Asian Military District), from instructor pilots who were evacuated from Chuguev military aviation school of pilots (CHVAShP) in November-December 1941. At formation armed with 20 (twenty) I-16s overhauled in aircraft repair shops of the CHVAShP (now - Chuguev Aircraft Repair Plant).

HTH,
KL

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barneybolac
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« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2016, 06:52:15 AM »


Useful stuff indeed, hope you understand now what and where was Kalinin Front...  Smiley

There is even more info at Russian wikipedia at https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-%D1%8F_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B4%D1%83%D1%88%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%8F_(%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A0)

There is a status listing at May 16, 1942.  3rd Air Army comprised of 9 fighter regiments among other aviation regiments. Most of those fighter regiments were equiped with Lagg-3s.  But...

There was only one fighter regiment with I-16s subordinated to 256 iad (Fighter Division) - 728 iap

more about the 728 iap at https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/728-%D0%B9_%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BA

interesting info at the beginning of the page:
Сформирован в г. Чимкент Казахской ССР (Среднеазиатский военный округ), из летчиков-инструкторов находившейся в эвакуации Чугуевской военной авиационной школы пилотов (ЧВАШП), в ноябре-декабре 1941 года. На вооружении при формировании имел 20 отремонтированных в авиационных ремонтных мастерских ЧВАШП (ныне ? Чугуевский авиационный ремонтный завод) самолётов И-16.

Translation:
Formed in Shymkent Kazakh SSR (Central Asian Military District), from instructor pilots who were evacuated from Chuguev military aviation school of pilots (CHVAShP) in November-December 1941. At formation armed with 20 (twenty) I-16s overhauled in aircraft repair shops of the CHVAShP (now - Chuguev Aircraft Repair Plant).

HTH,
KL



Well done on finding the squadron information KL. Cool
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 08:49:43 AM by barneybolac » Logged
KL
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« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2016, 10:10:59 PM »

Although we know the regiment this I-16 belong to, the question of its colours is still open...

During the winter 1941/42, three paints were used to camouflage planes:

- "permanent" white
- silver
- "temporary" (washable) white

"Permanent" white paint was sprayed in factories or overhaul workshops so it was even, nontransparent and semi-glossy or glossy.

Silver paint was also sprayed and it also looks even, solid/nontransparent and semi-glossy.  Some airplanes were painted overall in silver (both upper and undersides were painted in same silver).

Temporary white was usually brushed in the field so it's rough, uneven (sometimes semi-transparent, sometimes solid) and flat (matte). Usually it weathered quickly so it looks washed away or chipped.  It was common to paint in white only a part of the airplane (rear fuselage and tail, or wings, rear fuselage and tail), or to apply white in a disruptive pattern.


IMHO, there is no temporary white on this particular I-16 - or at least nothing like typical rough, uneven, flat and weathered MK-7...   IMHO, this I-16 can be compared with 12 giap MiG-3 No "02"



If this MiG-3 was white, silver and green, then our I-16 has to be white, silver and green:

-  glossy white fuselage
-  silver wings (+ silver fuselage patches)
-  green engine cowling




Quote from: marluc on June 30, 2016, 02:33:03 PM
Quote
Regarding the paint,as sometimes silver paint looks like gray in B/W pictures:
-Fuselaje top in white
-Wing and all tail surfaces (including replacement) in silver

Yes Martin, I agree with you...  Smiley

Regards,
KL
  
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 06:42:52 PM by KL » Logged
KL
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« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2016, 08:53:23 PM »

Better copies of the famous MiG-3 photo:





these photos better show reflections on glossy white fuselages and relatively dull silver noses of two planes in foreground.

Regards,
KL
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2016, 12:41:15 PM »

Hi,
I don't think that the fuselage was glossy white. Should it be glossy, it should create sharp reflections of other things as the pilots and the horizon.
Certainly it was painted by brush, we see the strokes in the fillet of the stabilizer.
Usually silver is very difficult to be painted by brush, brush strokes remain very visible and we don't see this on the photo.
The rudder, that is from another plane, appears painted exactly as the stabilizer, and wasn't repainted after the mounting; so, the color should be common to many planes of the unit. Besides the contour of the star on the rudder is slightly irregular, as made by brush without masking. I think that well covering matt white is more likely than silver.
About the color of the wings, stabilizers, elevators and tail cone: it doesn't show metallic reflections nor brush strokes.
Should it be sprayed silver, reflections should be visible at least on the cone that is curved.
The original livery had to be green/blue, we see traces of it under the stabilizer's leading edge. So green was repainted with something that appeared as a light grey, I don't know if it was really grey or thinned white or what else. For modellistic purposes, I suggest the use of light grey.
The patches look too dark to be silver, whatever is their angulation; silver patches on the back should reflect a lot of light. Their darkness is comparable to the red star, but they can't be red, eventually green.
I agree on the green cowling and on the light blue undersurface.

Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2016, 07:31:39 PM »

Hi,

This is what I see on this I-16 photo:

- Fuselage is sprayed in white.  Paint is even, non-transparent and semi-glossy/glossy. This paint definitively isn't matte - there are distinctive reflections on rear fuselage (exactly the same as on MiG-3 photo).

- Wings and horizontal tail upper surfaces are brushed in silver.  Ideally silver paint was sprayed, but not always:  for example, interior side of the part of LaGG-3 fuselage  in Vesivehmaa museum is brushed in silver.  On I-16 photo, brush strokes are clearly visible on wing.


You may exclude gray as an optional colour for this plane:  gray has never been considered nor used as a winter camouflage colour...  Except on a a few aerobatic planes, gray and silver scheme has never been used on series I-16s.

Matte MK-7 can be also excluded, at least for fuselage. Fuselage is definitively too glossy to be MK-7.


Compare two photos - MiG-3s and I-16 fuselages look the same:





Regards,
KL      
« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 07:43:15 PM by KL » Logged
Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2016, 08:25:22 AM »

Hi,
I have made some notes on the image.

Certainly, the color of the fuselage has some shining, but I don't think it can be considered glossy because of the lack of reflections of the pilots.
Besides I don't think it is sprayed because there are brush strokes on its outline. The rudder was considered painted in the same way because there are not differences visible on this photo.
The dark parts visible on the wings don't seem the characteristic brush strokes visible on fully hand painted silver surfaces, but repairs as on the fuselage, repainted in light color.
When I write that the wings seem grey, I don't mean that grey paint was necessarily utilized. It could even be a layer of uniform but not covering white, or a layer of white with some impurity that, compared to cleaner white, seems as grey. Wings don't show any metallic shining, nor the tail cone shows it.
Regards
Massimo
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