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Author Topic: About the AE-9 paint.  (Read 6370 times)
xan
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« on: September 01, 2016, 07:46:30 AM »

Hello I'm preparing next model wich will be an I-153.

Kontantin knows welll the plane I will represent, it's the le Bourget museum one, in his original decoration.
the red 21 of the  236 IAP in june of 41


so I will paint it in AII alu for fabric part and AE-9 for metalic parts.

about the AE-9

the official name if AE-9 is light grey and massimo in your color propositions you advocate neutral light grey.


According to those pics and discutions we had in this forum
I was sure the grey was bluish


this one seems quite bluish too:


But the Akhan AE-9 is grey beige.

Alex Gorodnichev a russian friend of mine agree with  that .
According to him a ggof reference can be the color of this engine:



He think the SB-2 seems bluish because the plane is wet with the rain and the pic very flashy



other part of the SB-2 shows a beige tendance:





but the pics who make me think it's realy grey beige is that one:


this part could only have been paint in AII blue or AE-9 and in this case it's sure it's not AII blue...

so does anyone have more information about this or opinion?
thanks!

Xan
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xan
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« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2016, 10:49:29 AM »

this picture is  important too:

http://nsm08.casimages.com/img/2016/09/01//16090110572618634314464181.jpg

when the coal was retired appears an exterior metallic part non repeinted by the germans : it is AE-9 without any doubt.
sur light is quite bad and paint is 70 years old, but i think we have here a quite goood idea of AE-9
light grey with a little beige tendance...

Xan
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KL
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« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2016, 08:46:17 PM »


Kontantin knows welll the plane I will represent, it's the le Bourget museum one, in his original decoration.
the red 21 of the  236 IAP in june of 41


Hi Xan,
yes, I am familiar with le Bourget I-153 and thanks to this plane I know exactly what colour is AE-9.  Smiley

New, unweathered AE-9 is definitively light gray-green, not pure gray, not bluish gray... New AE-9 is glossy, almost as glossy as FS 595 chips which start with number 1

Most of the AE-9 that was revealed under green German paint is weathered - Germans re-painted the plane in 1942-43 when original paint was 3-4 years old.  It's almost certain that the plane was stored in open and exposed to the elements.  Weathered AE-9 paint is sun-bleached, chalked and covered in a network of very fine micro fractures (like old porcelain). It is semi-gloss to matte. Colour of weathered AE-9 is pale light gray; i don't remember any green tinge.

HTH,
KL
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xan
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« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2016, 09:39:08 PM »

thank you Konstantine...
Xan
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Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2016, 09:16:28 AM »

Hi,
Quote
New, unweathered AE-9 is definitively light gray-green, not pure gray, not bluish gray... New AE-9 is glossy, almost as glossy as FS 595 chips which start with number 1

Most of the AE-9 that was revealed under green German paint is weathered - Germans re-painted the plane in 1942-43 when original paint was 3-4 years old.  It's almost certain that the plane was stored in open and exposed to the elements.  Weathered AE-9 paint is sun-bleached, chalked and covered in a network of very fine micro fractures (like old porcelain). It is semi-gloss to matte. Colour of weathered AE-9 is pale light gray; i don't remember any green tinge.

This is interesting, but I wonder if the look of a paint not exposed to the sun is necessarily more accurate than a chip exposed. Observing the scans of the Nakrasok alboom, I suspect that the bonder of the paint becomes yellowish if not exposed to the light.
Some time ago, I was suggested a trick to reverse the turning to yellow of the film (or glue) of the decals sheet: to expose them to the full sun light (or, as a more dangerous alternative, to put them into boiling water).
Now I admit that I never did this, but I think that the possibility of this effect on the yellowing of a bonder should be taken into account.

Regards
Massimo
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KL
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« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2016, 08:23:38 PM »


... I wonder if the look of a paint not exposed to the sun is necessarily more accurate than a chip exposed. Observing the scans of the Nakrasok alboom, I suspect that the bonder of the paint becomes yellowish if not exposed to the light.


Paint yellowing or darkening present on many old paintings in gallerias and churches is better described as aging, not weathering.  Paint aging is caused by extremely slow processes within the paint (changes in relatively unstable pigments or media that were used) and reactions with aggressive chemicals from the air (smoke, H2S, etc.).

In case of preserved samples of Soviet paints from 1930-40es, paint aging is negligible. First; those samples are "only" 70-80 years old. Second: paint technology made huge progress in 20th century, so modern paints are generally better quality than those mixed several centuries ago.

Weathering is a different problem: it is caused by UV light, moisture (rain, snow) and extreme temperature changes.  If those adverse factors are removed, there is no weathering.  If plane had been stored indoors, in dry and shaded environment, weathering is negligible too.


Following photo shows how severe was paint weathering on le Bourget I-153



Paint under the leather coaming was protected from UV light and moisture so the paint looks almost as new...  The rest of the paint is bleached, faded, chalked...


Alex Gorodnichev a russian friend of mine agree with  that .
According to him a ggof reference can be the color of this engine:



He think the SB-2 seems bluish because the plane is wet with the rain and the pic very flashy



other part of the SB-2 shows a beige tendance:




Hi Xan,

Alex is my friend too, he helped a lot in revealing the history of Musee de l'air Stratostat gondola.   Smiley Smiley Smiley

Just for the sake of accuracy:
-  engine crank cases were painted with special paints (check colour table at research pages) that were more resistant to engine oil/ fuel spills and high temperatures - so green-gray paint on your engine photo isn't AE-9
-  paint remnants in SB rear cockpit are almost certainly green ALG-1 and steel gray A-14


... we have here a quite goood idea of AE-9 light grey with a little beige tendance...


According to wikipedia beige is yellowish or light brown colour.  Check here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beige

It takes its name from French, where the word originally meant natural wool that has been neither bleached nor dyed, and hence also the color of natural wool.



AE-9 doesn't have yellowish or brownish tinge... It's light gray-green when new.

Check FS chip at http://www.e-paint.co.uk/Lab_values.asp?cRange=Federal%20Standard%20595&cRef=14449
This chip isn't the closest FS equivalent, it's just what on my screen looks like new AE-9

HTH,
KL
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xan
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« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2016, 08:53:27 AM »

Hi,
Alex din't told me the engine paint was AE-9 but the colour was closed to AE-9.
and in fact, the FS reference you give is quite the same.



you are right I had not to say grey beige but grey green...

But I am very impressed with that picture. if this part is not weathered, it seems light neutral grey, not grey green at all...


last thing, what is leather coaming please?

Xan
« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 09:16:46 AM by xan » Logged

KL
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« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2016, 05:33:18 PM »


But I am very impressed with that picture. if this part is not weathered, it seems light neutral grey, not grey green at all...


last thing, what is leather coaming please?


I was impressed too! I later enlarged that part of the picture, compared this picture with other pictures and I it looks that the paint under the coaming IS NOT AE-9.  It could be A-14 or some other paint used to paint small duraluminum parts (small parts like covers were painted in various shades of gray, brown and green instead of being primed with ALG-1).

this is "new", unweathered AE-9



Coaming, headrest and seat back cushion are made of material called "brezant" - artificial leather, textile impregnated with something dark brown.

HTH,
KL
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xan
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« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2016, 10:53:03 AM »

it looks that the paint under the coaming IS NOT AE-9.  It could be A-14 or some other paint used to paint small duraluminum parts
it looks very light for A-14 i my opinion,  very strange the use of that paint in a exterior face...

this is "new", unweathered AE-9
So it is not a non sense to represent AE-9 in neutral grey...

I will do it in grey green.


Alex wants to take part in this discution but he can't suscribe  he have the fallowing message :
"Sorry, registration is currently disabled." (massimo do you know what it is ?)
he asked me to show this pic;

it's a le bourget plane's part

Xan
« Last Edit: September 04, 2016, 11:27:17 AM by xan » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2016, 11:05:40 PM »

Hi,
Quote
Alex wants to take part in this discution but he can't suscribe  he have the fallowing message :
"Sorry, registration is currently disabled." (massimo do you know what it is ?)
he asked me to show this pic;
To avoid spammers, that made hundreds of subscriptione every week, now accounts can be created only by administrators.
Alex has to write to me, choosing the username he wishes.

The photo of Alex is interesting, but it can't add much if there is not another known chip photographed aside it to make comparisons.

Quote
Paint yellowing or darkening present on many old paintings in gallerias and churches is better described as aging, not weathering.  Paint aging is caused by extremely slow processes within the paint (changes in relatively unstable pigments or media that were used) and reactions with aggressive chemicals from the air (smoke, H2S, etc.).
The yellowed decals were not of Renaissance age. Some firms made decals whose films become yellow quickly, some have the white ink that becomes yellow, other ones are still perfect after 40 years. Between paints, Humbrol 49  (matt clear) is noticeable for its brownish shade.  To understand if AE-9 ages differently on the sunlight or in shadow, one could look for chips of white paint with the same bonder.



Akanihin has written to me about this topic, asking to add the link to his page about AE-9. This page was already discussed on this forum some years ago, leaving doubts on the  identification of the paint of the sample; anyway, this is the link.
http://akan.ru/articles/item/29-%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%91%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5-%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%88%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%8B-%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B8-%D0%B0%D1%8D-9-%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B5-%D0%BD%D0%B5-%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BD%D0%B0.html

Regards
Massimo
« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 07:24:43 AM by Massimo Tessitori » Logged
xan
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« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2016, 07:08:21 PM »

now accounts can be created only by administrators. Alex has to write to me, choosing the username he wishes.
He told it was done.

Akanihin has written to me about this topic, asking to add the link to his page about AE-9.
what a pity he doesn't take part in the discussion. if he talks as bad as I do in english we could understand each other perfectely!

Alex told me he talked about this page with Anakhine. in his opinion the colour of the gun sight si ALG-1.
that's akan AE-9.



in my opinion, If it was so dark it would be more contrast betwen the metalic parts and the fabric









Xan


« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 10:12:17 PM by xan » Logged

Massimo Tessitori
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« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2016, 08:31:17 PM »

I agree that AE-9 was a light color/paint, and the gunsight has to be painted with another one, perhaps A-14.
ALG-1 should be zinc chromate, in the range of yellow (eventually greenish or brownish).
Regards
Massimo
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AlexGRD
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« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2016, 09:06:24 PM »

Hi everybody!
I'm glad to joint this site and your discussions. Thanks Massimo!

Regarding article at AKAN's site I have many discussions with Alexander and despite of few samples that he was kind to show me I'm not finally convinced by him.
The samples that he is shown in articles from my knowledge are corresponding to ALG-5 (grey-green) largely used on Yak-9U and its development and post-war Lavotchkine airplanes.
This primer/finish was usually used inside airframe parts (parts of TB-3 wreks in this case is fully justified) and could be used for gunsights especially in postwar period. Alexander has found many samples at flight intrument's manufacturing plants but it is also quite possible that this ALG-5 may be later modified also in formula.
Thus I'm still based on idea and available sources that the AE-9 was some kind of analogue of the german RLM-02 i.e. grey-green having same "chameleon" properties depending of lightning and exposure conditions of the old B/W pictures.
I think it will be great to ask Cyrille from MAE/Ailes Anciennes to provide us more high-resolution pictures of inside of the larger possible number of cowling parts of I-153 under restoration.
Another important aspect is to take these pictures on natural light conditions but without sun blinks like they have done previously with their He-162 parts.
And the rear side of the frontal cowling is an important element because I suggesting that it's 100% original. Normally all the parts of engine cowling were painted from both sides at the painting shop by the same original colors. So probably ALG-1 or AE-9. And AE-9 may be painted upper ALG-1 primer - this need to be checked on original parts.

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AlexGRD
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« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2016, 09:29:50 PM »

For example the same frontal cowling from external side being repainted few times
« Last Edit: September 06, 2016, 01:54:39 PM by AlexGRD » Logged
xan
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« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2016, 10:13:47 PM »

Hey Alex,
it's a pleasure to read you here!
Xan
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